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 Post subject: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Well at least he was today lol, just lookin to see the view count go through the roof.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Hard to argue that he didn't look good but someone will find a way. I think everyone in the stadium and watching on TV knew that last call would be a QB draw. Kinda dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Yup, I agree, Green Bay loaded up the line, then a qb draw? horrible play call, but I'm not shedding any tears, screw philly :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:39 pm 
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I obviously wasn't watching the same game you were.

Vick missed a ton of easy throws and the only plays he made were with his legs. Missed 2 wide open receivers that could have tied the game and threw into triple coverage at the goalline. The final drive, he basically decided that he was going to run every play, which GB finally got wise to and was easily able to shut him down.

Vick's decision making was garbage, and while Ryan's wasn't perfect, there were several plays today that showed very good improvements in his decision making. Ryan did an excellent job feeling the Steelers pressure, handling their blitz and did his best to spread the ball around even with Roddy getting a ridiclous 23 targets today. And you know what, Roddy was probably open on 15-20 of them, so why not get him the ball?

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:03 pm 
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I'm starting to take pot shots at Ryan. I believe that he's better than Vick by leaps and bounds. But I don't think that he's in the same neighborhood as Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Favre, etc. I really hope that we see him start to make those strides. I also think that our scheme/playcalling might have something to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:12 pm 
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I'm also taking a shot at Ryan, I know for us to have any chance of being a true contender he needs to be better than Vick, but if you look at the stat line, for today alone Vick was much better. In addition Vick was running and bringing his team back while Ryan throught the ball away repeatedly and got picked off when he through the 15th out route to roddy. Who would I rather have in the long run, RYAN, but today his play was really disappointing.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:51 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
I obviously wasn't watching the same game you were.

Vick missed a ton of easy throws and the only plays he made were with his legs. Missed 2 wide open receivers that could have tied the game and threw into triple coverage at the goalline. The final drive, he basically decided that he was going to run every play, which GB finally got wise to and was easily able to shut him down.

Vick's decision making was garbage, and while Ryan's wasn't perfect, there were several plays today that showed very good improvements in his decision making. Ryan did an excellent job feeling the Steelers pressure, handling their blitz and did his best to spread the ball around even with Roddy getting a ridiclous 23 targets today. And you know what, Roddy was probably open on 15-20 of them, so why not get him the ball?

Congrats, Pudge, you've become a full blown hater. You call converting a third and 17 (I think) goal to go only using his legs? Did you watch the game? Give him credit. He came in when I think the score was 20-3 and made a game of it. 16-24 passing for 175 yards. Not bad for a backup. Frankly, there were a couple plays that had he run instead of passed he would have converted. Wow...

We're all gonna ride and die with Ryan but I have to say I think he has become a bit of a media darling and some of the field results are needed. He didn't cost us this game to day (though the pick late probably should have) but he didn't win it for us either...like a third stringer did for Pittsburgh. I think Cyril's commentary the other day about Ryan was pretty accurate...that he could consistently be as good as Chandler was at his best which ain't bad at all but whether it is Ryan, the play calling or the Gatorade I think our moribund offensive output is troubling. That was a reeeaaaallly depressing loss today. Reminded me of too many other gorgeous Fall afternoons that I sat before a TV for no good reason.

OK...I feel better now. Let me go down some of this vintage Seconal I've been holding since the 70s. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:15 am 
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RobertAP wrote:
I'm starting to take pot shots at Ryan. I believe that he's better than Vick by leaps and bounds. But I don't think that he's in the same neighborhood as Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Favre, etc..

When you find a third year QB that is in that neighborhood, give me a holler. :wink:

DaveWaz wrote:
I'm also taking a shot at Ryan, I know for us to have any chance of being a true contender he needs to be better than Vick, but if you look at the stat line, for today alone Vick was much better.

Yeah, if you looked at our stat line, you might think Dixon also outplayed Ryan. But anybody that actually watched the game understands that was not the case.

backnblack wrote:
Congrats, Pudge, you've become a full blown hater. You call converting a third and 17 (I think) goal to go only using his legs? Did you watch the game? Give him credit. He came in when I think the score was 20-3 and made a game of it. 16-24 passing for 175 yards.

You're absolutely right, I am a full blown hater. My dick no longer moves 2 inches to the left whenever I see Vick break a 30-yard run and almost score. Vick didn't play terrible, but to suggest he outplayed Ryan is a joke.

Yes, I did watch the game. The Packers couldn't handle his running ability. They had him dead to rights several times in the pocket, and he slipped tacklers, scrambling, and improvised, doing everything that he always used to do.

But he had an opportunity to win the game, and once the Packers made the necessary adjustments to try and stymie his running ability, he and the Eagles offense was dead in the water. Because he's not a QB or a leader, and he proved it once again today. He missed a ton of reads, missed a ton of easy throws, and his ego got big when he wanted to repeat some 2002 Minnesota Vikings magic, and he ultimately let his team down because of it. Andy Reid knows it too, and the minute Kevin Kolb is healthy enough to play, he'll be back in the lineup.

backnblack wrote:
We're all gonna ride and die with Ryan but I have to say I think he has become a bit of a media darling and some of the field results are needed. He didn't cost us this game to day (though the pick late probably should have) but he didn't win it for us either...like a third stringer did for Pittsburgh.

So Dennis Dixon won the game for the Steelers? Really, I missed that. It seemed like the Steelers did everything possible offensively to make sure Dixon had no impact on their ability to win or lose that game. Their defense won that game.

The only thing Dixon showed in that game was that he couldn't overthrow a WR with 4.33 speed that has a step on a safety.

backnblack wrote:
I think Cyril's commentary the other day about Ryan was pretty accurate...that he could consistently be as good as Chandler was at his best which ain't bad at all but whether it is Ryan, the play calling or the Gatorade I think our moribund offensive output is troubling

Look, I don't have a problem with anybody being critical of Ryan's play in a given game. But it's ludicrous to sit here and say in his 3rd year after 1 game what he's going to be down the road. Lest I remind you how Drew Brees looked in his 3rd season as well.

Go ahead and jump off the bandwagon. It is going to make it all the more sweeter when he proves you wrong. See, now looked what you've done. You've brought the PB21 out of me! :x

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:25 am 
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I'm happy to see Mike play......on another team. In order for him to come full circle he has to become somewhat successful again....then comes the inevitable screwup. He has lost a little more than a step though.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:39 am 
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Pudge wrote:
Vick didn't play terrible, but to suggest he outplayed Ryan is a joke.

Really? Vick's 16/24 for 175 with a 101.9 QB rating, plus 9/103 rushing is not outplaying Ryan's 27/44 for 252 with a 67.6 QB rating and a crucial INT? I think Ryan himself would be the first to tell you that's nuts.
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Look, I don't have a problem with anybody being critical of Ryan's play in a given game. But it's ludicrous to sit here and say in his 3rd year after 1 game what he's going to be down the road. Lest I remind you how Drew Brees looked in his 3rd season as well.

Well, Brees barely saw the field as a rookie, playing in just one game, so his 3rd season as a starter wasn't until his 4th season in the league, in 2004. In that season, he completed 65.5% of his passes, for 3,159 yards, 27 TDs, 7 INTs and a 104.8 QB rating.


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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:06 am 
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SteveH wrote:
Really? Vick's 16/24 for 175 with a 101.9 QB rating, plus 9/103 rushing is not outplaying Ryan's 27/44 for 252 with a 67.6 QB rating and a crucial INT? I think Ryan himself would be the first to tell you that's nuts.

Yep, and if all you looked at were the stats you would be duped into thinking VIck had a good game. But if you watched the last drive of the Eagles, and on their 2nd to last drive once they got into the redzone then you wouldn't be so quick to pat Vick on the back, because his failures at critical junctures were just as bad as Ryan's if not worse. He didn't even attempt a pass on the Eagles final drive, opting instead that he alone was going to run 76 yards for the game-winning score.

And you're right, Ryan would say that's nuts because he's his own worst critic and a classy individual such as himself would never throw another player under the bus, even one from an opposing team. Vick on the other hand would scratch his head and believe he did everything possible (besides complete a pass) to win that game for the Eagles because of those exact stats you cited.
SteveH wrote:
Well, Brees barely saw the field as a rookie, playing in just one game, so his 3rd season as a starter wasn't until his 4th season in the league, in 2004. In that season, he completed 65.5% of his passes, for 3,159 yards, 27 TDs, 7 INTs and a 104.8 QB rating.

You're right, Brees 3rd year as a starter was his 4th year. And guess what, even he had 3 games that season where his passer rating was under 60.

But the Chargers did give up on Brees after his 3rd year in the league (2nd as a starter) because they believed his decision making was poor. And imagine if they hadn't, they could have taken Larry Fitzgerald in the '04 draft with the NO. 1 pick and potentially have a few SB rings by now.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:55 am 
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Pudge wrote:
SteveH wrote:
Really? Vick's 16/24 for 175 with a 101.9 QB rating, plus 9/103 rushing is not outplaying Ryan's 27/44 for 252 with a 67.6 QB rating and a crucial INT? I think Ryan himself would be the first to tell you that's nuts.

Yep, and if all you looked at were the stats you would be duped into thinking VIck had a good game. But if you watched the last drive of the Eagles, and on their 2nd to last drive once they got into the redzone then you wouldn't be so quick to pat Vick on the back, because his failures at critical junctures were just as bad as Ryan's if not worse. He didn't even attempt a pass on the Eagles final drive, opting instead that he alone was going to run 76 yards for the game-winning score.


Even when Vick was here, I've never seen him throw the football as badly as he did against the Packers. He stared down his receivers, who simply outplayed the defense, and then (with extremely poor footwork) let the football fly straight to the WRs feet. That was not a game of Vick making good decisions and throwing the football well, that was a game of the WRs making plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:06 am 
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Tough crowd for the Dog Killa. I'll say one thing, the WRs for both the Eagles seemed to be more wide open than ours did. Maybe this is just perception but we never seem to have separation. How Hines Ward can get as open as he did is hard to figure. I'm not saying all the criticisms of Vick are suddenly invalid and that he is now an elite QB but if you watched that game and think he stunk it up then he'll never satisfy you. Did he miss some open receivers or make some poor passes? Yes. And, yes, sadly, Dixon probably outplayed Ryan yesterday but not by a lot. Hopefully, Matt bounces back and "proves me wrong" but moving from Vick's nut swing to Ryan's doesn't make you enlightened. Call a spade a spade when you see it. Vick didn't stare down WRs any more than Ryan. We have got to spread the ball around...and Norwood needs to catch a ball in open space. Man, how many times have we said this stuff? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:36 am 
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I just Green Bay would have broken him in half. Yeah, I'm one of those that doesn't think he deserves to play in the league...

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:49 am 
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backnblack wrote:
Tough crowd for the Dog Killa. I'll say one thing, the WRs for both the Eagles seemed to be more wide open than ours did. Maybe this is just perception but we never seem to have separation. How Hines Ward can get as open as he did is hard to figure.

It's simple, the Eagles have better receivers than we do. And the reason for Ward is that he still clearly might have another 1000-yard season in the tank, and our corners aren't great.

backnblack wrote:
And, yes, sadly, Dixon probably outplayed Ryan yesterday but not by a lot.

I'm still trying to figure this out why anybody that watched the game yesterday would think this. Sure, he had better stats. He had easier throws to make, and he made most of them. But the Steelers didn't ask Dixon to win them this game, and he did not fail in that regard. Our coaches asked Ryan to win us this game, and I guess he failed. Is that why Dixon outplayed Ryan, because he succeeded relative to what was asked of him? I guess, that sort of logic works.

But the analogy I would use is that his coaches asked him to run a 10K, while our coaches asked Ryan to run a marathon. I'm not going to say that Dixon had a better run/race when he only had to run a quarter the distance that Ryan did.

For what he was asked to do, Dixon did a decent job. For what Ryan was asked to do, IMO I think he did a decent job. And since Ryan was asked to do way more than Dixon, I don't think Dixon out played him at all regardless of what stats you want to throw in my face, or how sexy it looked when Dixon threw a 50-yard bomb.

In the 5 games, that Polamalu played in last year, the combined passer rating in those games was 64.0. 2 of those games were against Carson Palmer and Brett Favre, and they combined for a passer rating of 76.7, combining for 51 of 80 passes for 512 yards, 0 TDs, and 1 INT. In '08, the average QB rating against the Steelers defense was 60.6.

Given his level of competition, I think Ryan did a decent job. His task was much harder than anything Dixon dealt with, so call me crazy, but I give the nod to Ryan.
backnblack wrote:
Hopefully, Matt bounces back and "proves me wrong" but moving from Vick's nut swing to Ryan's doesn't make you enlightened. Call a spade a spade when you see it. Vick didn't stare down WRs any more than Ryan. We have got to spread the ball around...and Norwood needs to catch a ball in open space. Man, how many times have we said this stuff? :lol:

I'm not saying Ryan played well. But the difference between Ryan and Vick, and the reason why I'm swing from one's nuts and not from the other is because Ryan has the tools to get better. He's not just satisfied when his box score looks good and his team loses. Ryan is going to put in the hours upon hours of work going forward and get better.

Is he going to be perfect? No. He still will have his growing pains, but IMO if you look beyond the stats and the INT, I think you saw improvement with Ryan on many of the areas where we said he needed to improve this year. I think he was improved in all these areas: accuracy, decison making, arm strength, pocket presence, etc. despite playing a lights out defense.

Now if that qualifies me as a nut hugger, then so be it. But I believe in Matt Ryan, and I'm confident he's going to get better.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:05 pm 
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LOL, I knew this would be a fun thread, Anyways I was trying to make a point that Ryan's play yesterday was disappointing. I know he's young, but in order for this team to suceed we need to be able to throw the ball. Was it all his fault? Do we lack quality recievers, outside of Roddy and Tony G? Was he getting more pressure from the defense than normal? yes, yes,yes

Teams have figured out that atlanta wants to run all the time and throw short passes, they are crowding the line like crazy and in order for this team to take the next step a solution must be found. I for one am officially jumping onto the we need a deep threat at wide reciever band wagon, and know I don't consider Douglas or Jenkins to be that guy.

Pittsburgh's D is very good, but 9 points, is 9 points. Someone's gotta be responsible

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:06 pm 
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This is just a question, not a knock, Pudge, but your 10K v Marathon takes me back to 08. Was Ryans great year only because we ran all the time and only asked him to run 10Ks? In 09 he went to Marathons and showed he was 'winded', and 2010 we are very much still looking at Marathons and are waiting to see if he can truly run them 16 times in a season.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:36 pm 
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MarylandFalcon1 wrote:
This is just a question, not a knock, Pudge, but your 10K v Marathon takes me back to 08. Was Ryans great year only because we ran all the time and only asked him to run 10Ks? In 09 he went to Marathons and showed he was 'winded', and 2010 we are very much still looking at Marathons and are waiting to see if he can truly run them 16 times in a season.

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Yeah, I would say that is exactly how it breaks down MF1. Is he going to be able to run them 16 times this year? No. He's not a 8th year veteran that can give you consistently good to great performances week in and week out.

I don't think Ryan was great as a rookie. I think he was average to above average in '08, but because the expectations were so low that he blew them out of the water, and the fact that in almost every win we had that year, it was because our running game's ability to dominate that opponent, that he never really had to make the necessary plays to make the offense go. He just had to make some plays to get us over the top and that was probably only in 3 or 4 games.

I think overall, he was about the same last year. Except because our running game couldn't dominate very many games (outside 3 or 4), the onus was on him to make the plays that made the offense go. He clearly wasn't ready for that, and with the lofty expectations, he looked bad in comparison.

And I also think the expectations on Ryan are again too high because of all the Super Bowl sleeper talk and the fact that people (IMHO mistakingly) believe that the 3rd year is some magic year and Ryan is giong to be mentioned in the same breath as guys like Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Schaub, etc.

I think things are going to start to come together for Ryan this year, and I think this year he's going to have a good year, but I don't think he's going to be able to carry the offense like those guys tend to do.

I also don't think he's going to have to face a defense as tough as the Steelers D the rest of the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:11 pm 
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Ryan is who we thought he was: a smart QB with good pocket presence who is a good leader, but lacks the top physical skills of a typical #3 overall pick. He was also described as more of a "finished product" than most college QBs, so it makes sense that he had a strong rookie year.

As I said before the draft, Ryan reminds me of Chad Pennington, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan may not have the upside of Flacco or Schaub, but he's good enough to win with. He just needs a strong surrounding cast (including a solid running game and some more good WRs) in order to be successful.


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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:20 pm 
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SteveH wrote:
Ryan is who we thought he was: a smart QB with good pocket presence who is a good leader, but lacks the top physical skills of a typical #3 overall pick. He was also described as more of a "finished product" than most college QBs, so it makes sense that he had a strong rookie year.

As I said before the draft, Ryan reminds me of Chad Pennington, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan may not have the upside of Flacco or Schaub, but he's good enough to win with. He just needs a strong surrounding cast (including a solid running game and some more good WRs) in order to be successful.

This...though I think he has more physical tools than Pennington by a little bit. It's really kind of funny how much of an inverted Vick he is. Wouldn't it be fair to describe Vick as a dumb QB with poor pocket presence and is a poor leader but possesses superior physical skills to the typical #3 QB?

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:46 am 
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backnblack wrote:
SteveH wrote:
Ryan is who we thought he was: a smart QB with good pocket presence who is a good leader, but lacks the top physical skills of a typical #3 overall pick. He was also described as more of a "finished product" than most college QBs, so it makes sense that he had a strong rookie year.

As I said before the draft, Ryan reminds me of Chad Pennington, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan may not have the upside of Flacco or Schaub, but he's good enough to win with. He just needs a strong surrounding cast (including a solid running game and some more good WRs) in order to be successful.

This...though I think he has more physical tools than Pennington by a little bit. It's really kind of funny how much of an inverted Vick he is. Wouldn't it be fair to describe Vick as a dumb QB with poor pocket presence and is a poor leader but possesses superior physical skills to the typical #3 QB?

Definitely. These two guys are polar opposites, yet they are both capable of winning in their own way - the two highest QB winning percentages in franchise history.

Though you have to think it's not complete random fate that the Falcons ended up with such an anti-Vick. I'm sure a clean cut studious leader with great off the field character was looking pretty good to Arthur after he was betrayed by Vick. It's not unlike the classic scenario where a team replaces a hard nosed coach with a players coach etc. Heck, we went through that cycle twice as well, replacing the perceived as out of touch Reeves with the young Mora and then replacing the players' buddy Mora with the hard-assed Petrino.


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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:09 am 
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SteveH wrote:
backnblack wrote:
SteveH wrote:
Ryan is who we thought he was: a smart QB with good pocket presence who is a good leader, but lacks the top physical skills of a typical #3 overall pick. He was also described as more of a "finished product" than most college QBs, so it makes sense that he had a strong rookie year.

As I said before the draft, Ryan reminds me of Chad Pennington, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan may not have the upside of Flacco or Schaub, but he's good enough to win with. He just needs a strong surrounding cast (including a solid running game and some more good WRs) in order to be successful.

This...though I think he has more physical tools than Pennington by a little bit. It's really kind of funny how much of an inverted Vick he is. Wouldn't it be fair to describe Vick as a dumb QB with poor pocket presence and is a poor leader but possesses superior physical skills to the typical #3 QB?

Definitely. These two guys are polar opposites, yet they are both capable of winning in their own way - the two highest QB winning percentages in franchise history.

Though you have to think it's not complete random fate that the Falcons ended up with such an anti-Vick. I'm sure a clean cut studious leader with great off the field character was looking pretty good to Arthur after he was betrayed by Vick. It's not unlike the classic scenario where a team replaces a hard nosed coach with a players coach etc. Heck, we went through that cycle twice as well, replacing the perceived as out of touch Reeves with the young Mora and then replacing the players' buddy Mora with the hard-assed Petrino.

So I take it you think we should definitely draft a QB next year?

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:05 am 
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Pudge wrote:
SteveH wrote:
backnblack wrote:
SteveH wrote:
Ryan is who we thought he was: a smart QB with good pocket presence who is a good leader, but lacks the top physical skills of a typical #3 overall pick. He was also described as more of a "finished product" than most college QBs, so it makes sense that he had a strong rookie year.

As I said before the draft, Ryan reminds me of Chad Pennington, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ryan may not have the upside of Flacco or Schaub, but he's good enough to win with. He just needs a strong surrounding cast (including a solid running game and some more good WRs) in order to be successful.

This...though I think he has more physical tools than Pennington by a little bit. It's really kind of funny how much of an inverted Vick he is. Wouldn't it be fair to describe Vick as a dumb QB with poor pocket presence and is a poor leader but possesses superior physical skills to the typical #3 QB?

Definitely. These two guys are polar opposites, yet they are both capable of winning in their own way - the two highest QB winning percentages in franchise history.

Though you have to think it's not complete random fate that the Falcons ended up with such an anti-Vick. I'm sure a clean cut studious leader with great off the field character was looking pretty good to Arthur after he was betrayed by Vick. It's not unlike the classic scenario where a team replaces a hard nosed coach with a players coach etc. Heck, we went through that cycle twice as well, replacing the perceived as out of touch Reeves with the young Mora and then replacing the players' buddy Mora with the hard-assed Petrino.

So I take it you think we should definitely draft a QB next year?

Yeah, Pudge, after Ryan runs off to ARK we'll have to.

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 Post subject: Re: Vick better than Ryan!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:05 am 
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backnblack wrote:
Yeah, Pudge, after Ryan runs off to ARK we'll have to.


Ha Ha....you wish.

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