Cutler to the Bears

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Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:32 pm

ESPN reporting 2 first rounders and Orten hears a who.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:34 pm

Updated: April 2, 2009, 5:28 PM ET
Cutler going to Bears

By John Clayton
ESPN.com
Archive

The Chicago Bears pulled the big upset Thursday afternoon by acquiring Denver Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, a source told ESPN.com.

The Broncos confirmed the move.

To acquire Cutler, the Bears had to give up quarterback Kyle Orton and first-round picks in 2009 and 2010, a source said.

To complete the trade, the Broncos had to give back an undisclosed draft choice in a later round.

The Bears beat out the Redskins, Buccaneers, Lions, Titans and other teams to get land the 25-year-old Pro Bowl quarterback.

The Broncos had been asking for at least two first-round choices.

Cutler asked to be traded when he found out first-year coach Josh McDaniels tried to acquire Matt Cassel in a trade with the Patriots.

Cutler had not returned phone calls from the Broncos, according to the team, and had been staying away from the offseason program.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:09 pm

Denver just robbed the heck out of the Bears. This will go down as one of the biggest swindles in NFL History in 10-15 years.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Emmitt » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:12 pm

Kyle Orton isnt that bad. He will actually have wide recievers to throw too. Who are the Bears wide recievers other than Hester buncha nobodys. You can only go so far without great wide recievers look at Donavan Mcnabb before TO came to Philly. Other than Hester and a potenial star in Greg Olson, Cutler will not be that great. He does benefit from at least a existent running game. The o-line is also shaky and I hope he is ready to meet Jared Allen again.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby thescout » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:19 pm

I would have taken draft picks rather than Orton and the 1st rounders. Denver could have signed Griese and then move up to get Sanchez which I think they could anyway even with Orton. Let Sanchez sit a year learn from Orton and then trade Orton for maybe a 1st rounder.

Since I live in Indiana thats all I will be hearing Cutler this and that.Cutler is from Indiana by the way like Jeff George. Listening to NFL Network Urlacher said he would be ticked off if the team tried to trade him and didn't tell him about it. I have news for any athlete playing sports your names probably do come up in trades many times but you never hear about it.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:30 pm

Orten had to be included in the deal Scout. He still has a nice upside in the kind of offense that Denver will be running. Denver still has many holes, and the draft picks will come in handy. They really don't need to draft Sanchez.He won't be there for them anyway, unless they trade up for him.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby thescout » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:04 pm

BB, I think Denver has enough to trade up for Sanchez just a matter if Mcdaniels wants him. Orton does buy them time so a QB doesn't have to be drafted this year.Orton was questionable in Chicago until this year so it is possible Denver might want Sanchez.

Even Mayock agrees with me Denver doesn't have a franchise Qb need and Sanchez should be the player to go after for Denver. Denver wanted Sanchez even over Cutler so will see what happens. I would expect the 1st rounder from Chicago next year to be around 20 or 20-25th pick thus it will be decent but I doubt Denver gets a top Qb from it.Denver could package their next's pick and Chicago's next yrs pick to hopefully get a top QB in next yrs draft but hard to say. From what I see of Sanchez he would be the player I would want even with Orton on your team this year.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:11 pm

Considering what they would have to give up to get sanchez, they could still get Cassell, the guy they wanted in the first place. Sorry I don't see them using the leverage they just gained to rebuild the defense, to go after a rookie QB. Orten will do a good job in Denver, he is a better QB than you think.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Pudge » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:02 pm

I agree BB. Between the comp or Orton and Simms, Denver should be fine at QB. I think Sanchez is potentially better than either, but the Broncos have one of the league's worst defenses, and like 3 players that project well into the 3-4 scheme. They need to use those picks to get playmakers in their front 7 along with draft a CB that can take over Champ Bailey in 2010.

The Bears got screwed, and don't even know it yet.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby thescout » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:54 pm

We shall see fellas! :wink:
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby DaveWaz » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Just wanted to put it in writing so when people go back and look during the season that I think the bears overpaid bigtime. Cutler has no targets other than te olsen, and now they are f'd draft wise this year and next. Dumb move Cutler is above average but not an elite qb.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby BirdBrain » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:37 pm

DaveWaz wrote:Just wanted to put it in writing so when people go back and look during the season that I think the bears overpaid bigtime. Cutler has no targets other than te olsen, and now they are f'd draft wise this year and next. Dumb move Cutler is above average but not an elite qb.


Hester is a great target, who got better with each game. With Cutler's arm, he won't have any problem finding open receivers. The problem will be, as it always is.....the receivers catching the ball, the Oline blocking, and Cutler's accuracy.


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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby SteveH » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:22 am

The Bears haven't had a Pro Bowl QB since Jim McMahan.
Two first rounders isn't a lot to pay for a franchise QB especially when you've
been through what the Bears have at that position. Cutler is a known quantity
with almost a limitless upside and they got him for a journeyman QB and two
draft picks which might never amount to anything.

It's a great move for the Bears. Also could be a great move for the Broncos,
*if* they land Sanchez and *if* Sanchez turns out to be a true franchise QB.

I certainly would be praying for Sanchez if I were a Broncos fan right now.
One of their contenders for starting QB doesn't have an arm and the other
one doesn't have a spleen.

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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Pudge » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:41 pm

I think Sanchez is the best player in this draft, so certainly I'd be wanting to get him if I'm a Bronco fan, but I can be happy with Kyle Orton or Chris SImms. Between those two, the Broncos will have a capable starter.

Falcon fans shouldn't be sleeping on Kyle Orton. He led a brilliant drive in the final minutes last year, that just got overshadowed by an even better one with 11 seconds left.

As for the Bears not having a Pro Bowl QB since 1985, I think the drought will continue. I doubt Cutler is a Pro Bowler in Chicago. He'll make that team better, but I doubt he puts up the numbers necessary to be a Pro Bowler in Ron Turner's offense.

Hester, Davis, and Bennett all have talent, but it remains to be seen if they can become consistent weapons. Not to mention the pressure on Cutler to be the "savior," and I don't think I'd be too optimistic based on the mental fortitude he's showed up to now.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Cyril » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:53 am

Well sometimes I find myself alone. I think this trade makes the Bears Super Bowl Contenders.

It looks like a steal by Denver but its the Bears that will get the impact. If Cutler leads the bears to the superbowl you heard it hear. He should be leading them a long time.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Emmitt » Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:25 pm

You can only go so far when your offensive line is leaky and you dont have a go-to guy. I think Brees, Ryan, and either Romo of Eli are the pro bowlers. Also possibly Aaron Rodgers.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Emmitt » Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:26 pm

You can only go so far when your offensive line is leaky and you dont have a go-to guy. I think Brees, Ryan, and either Romo of Eli are the pro bowlers. Also possibly Aaron Rodgers.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby SteveH » Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:42 pm

Cyril wrote:Well sometimes I find myself alone. I think this trade makes the Bears Super Bowl Contenders.

It looks like a steal by Denver but its the Bears that will get the impact. If Cutler leads the bears to the superbowl you heard it hear. He should be leading them a long time.

You are not alone Cyril. Some teams (like the Bears recently) go for decades without a legit franchise QB. Franchise QBs win championships. The best the Kyle Orton's and Rex Grossman's do is not lose games for you. It's simple arrogance on Denver's part to think they can plug in retreads like Kyle Orton or Chris Simms and not lose anything.

Those who think the Bears "paid too much" should ask themselves how many 1st round picks actually turn out to be as good a player as Cutler is. A 1st round pick doesn't equal a franchise QB or even a Pro Bowl player. Not even close. Two 1st round picks is in fact a very small price to pay for a legit franchise QB who has 10 years in front of him. For example, there is absolutely no way I would trade Matt Ryan for two 1st round picks and Kyle Orton. That would be insane.

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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby thescout » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:45 pm

I have to agree with Cyril and Steve everyone wants to downplay the Bear's getting Cutler yet if he relaizes his potential they will be perennial playoff contenders. There probably is a 50/50 bust factor with 1st rounders so I would go for the potential of Cutler over a draft pick which will probably be in the 20's next yr for the Bears. Potential franchise Qbs are the hardest thing to find for a franchise just last yr many were debating whether to choose Dorsey or Ryan and look what has happened. There are many busts when it comes to Qbs like any position so if you find yourself in a position to get a quality QB you need to get the QB.

They don't say this is a QB driven league for nothing. The QB brings the star power and can make a team perennial playoff contenders more so than any other position. Yes you still need other good players but QB means so much more to a team than any other position. Living in Indiana we get exclusive Bears and Colts coverage its sickening. Now all I hear is Cutler this and that plus Cutler is from Indiana. This is why I turn the channel to ESPN, NFL Network to watch my fav team the Falcon's.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Pudge » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:37 pm

Yeah, it makes the Bears Super Bowl contenders, but no more so than the Giants, Eagles, Cowboys, Vikings, Panthers, Falcons, Saints, and Cardinals already are.

Look, I'm a QB-centric guy, but I disagree with those people that think Cutler is going to be able to make this 9-7 Bears team into some 13-3 team that will be the frontrunner to the NFC crown. It could happen, but I don't think the Bears are much better than the Falcons right now.

I don't think Cutler is that much better than players like Kyle Orton. I think people tend to overhype Cutler based off his numbers. BUt IMO, Cutler is no better a QB than Phillip Rivers. And I don't think of Philip Rivers as a "franchise" QB at least not in the same way I think of players like Manning, Brady, McNabb, Roethlisberger, Brees, etc.

How many 1st rounders turn into players as good as Cutler? Well in the past 5 drafts, there have been 3 QBs: Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, which doesn't count FLacco, Ryan, Campbell, and Aaron Rodgers.

Adrian Peterson, Joe Thomas, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Kellen Winslow, Roddy White, Vince Wilfork, Jon Beason, Thomas Davis, Jonathan Vilma, DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Patrick Willis, Shawn Andrews, Tommie Harris, Haloti Ngata, Mario Williams, Antonio Cromartie, Darrelle Revis, LaRon Landry, and Sean Taylor are/were elite or near-elite players at their respective positions and have been 1st round picks since 2004, making them comparable to Cutler.

I'm not saying everyone on that list is a guy I'd swap for Cutler straight up or rather have than Cutler.

But I disagree with people that paint Cutler as this "great" QB and Kyle Orton as this "career backup."

Look, I believe you need strong QB play to win in this league. But I don't believe that Kyle Orton was incapable of that. Had the Bears been able to add a player like Hakeem Nicks or Brian Robiskie in this year's draft, I think they would have been fairly set on offense. And those others picks they could have used would have gone a long way IMO to adding youth to their old defense.

When you give up the price the Bears gave up, you're basically saying that we're not going to be able to improve the team a lot in the next 2 drafts. So you better be sure that Cutler is going to really elevate your team in the next 2 years to counter that. And IMO, Cutler is not that good.

IMO, this is a lot like the move to acquire Brett Favre for the Jets and Drew Brees for the Saints. Did it make them significantly better? Yep. Did it even make them "contenders?" Yep. But do they have any rings to show for it? No. And would they be much better had they focused on drafting well in those years instead of trying the FA route? I think so.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Cyril » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:45 pm

How many 1st rounders turn into players as good as Cutler? Well in the past 5 drafts, there have been 3 QBs: Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, which doesn't count FLacco, Ryan, Campbell, and Aaron Rodgers.
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All the other info confuses the matter.... The past 5 drafts is why I like the deal for Chicago.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby dwmyers » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:55 pm

1. If Ron Turner is 90% of the OC that Norv or Zampese can be, then I wouldn't sniff at what the Bears could possibly do. Or maybe no one here remembers Dan Fouts and Air Coryell.
2. Bears need linemen and receivers now.
3. If Cutler is approximately as good as Rivers, then I'd never trade him for Eli Mannin.. oh wait, you have to mean Peyton. never mind ;). I'm a bit of a Rivers fan, to be sure. Have been since his Senior Bowl.

Bears of course paid too much, but if you think of the cost of getting Cutler was the first and third this year, then the cost above value was a first next year, equivalent to a second this year. Orton wasn't that much better than a FA QB, to be plain spoken.

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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Pudge » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:14 am

IMO, you never give up a future 1st round pick unless you're 100% positive that the player you're trading for is going to be the final piece to the puzzle that will get you to the Super Bowl. And how can you be 100% positive when you have a brand new player coming to a brand new system?

When you can name me a trade in which a team gave up a future #1 and didn't regret it later, I might be willing to buy it was an acceptable value.

And the Bears will be limited in the linemen and receivers they can get because they gave up 3 future starters.
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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby SteveH » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:29 am

Pudge wrote:How many 1st rounders turn into players as good as Cutler? Well in the past 5 drafts, there have been 3 QBs: Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, which doesn't count FLacco, Ryan, Campbell, and Aaron Rodgers.

Adrian Peterson, Joe Thomas, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Kellen Winslow, Roddy White, Vince Wilfork, Jon Beason, Thomas Davis, Jonathan Vilma, DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Patrick Willis, Shawn Andrews, Tommie Harris, Haloti Ngata, Mario Williams, Antonio Cromartie, Darrelle Revis, LaRon Landry, and Sean Taylor are/were elite or near-elite players at their respective positions and have been 1st round picks since 2004, making them comparable to Cutler.

So that's 22 players over 5 drafts = about 4.5 per year out of 32 picks - about 1 out of every 7 first round picks. So a former first round pick who has been in the league a couple of years and is living up to his potential is worth a LOT more than a generic future first round pick, which may easily yield a bust or just an average starter.

On top of that you have the importance of the QB position and the fact that as you point out only an average of 2 franchise QBs are available in each draft, and some first round QBs turn out to be busts. A young QB like Cutler who has great skills and is coming off a Pro Bowl year should be easily worth 2 first round picks.

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Re: Cutler to the Bears

Postby Cyril » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:48 am

There are always exceptions:

John Elway
A first-round draft choice of the Baltimore Colts in 1983, Elway was immediately traded to the Broncos for two veteran players and a 1984 first-round pick. (its true Elway did not want to go to Baltimore but he'd have never sat out the season)

I knew this one but that's over 20 years ago, when you talk certain Qb prospects
I throw most rules out the window..
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