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 Post subject: Pudge
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:49 pm 
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I know you locked that other thread but I fell I need to say something.

And as for us talking about Super BOwl predictions, it comes from the fact that we have a bye this week. WIthout a game to look for and discuss on Sunday, it tends to make many of us (including myself) look at the rest of the season.

I understand, but don't like it at all. We should be eying up the cometition this week, not looking at the SB. It's not even a givin we will make the playoffs so talking about a possible SB is redic IMO. In this bye week we should be talking about what we need to improve on, talk about our strengths and weaknesses. But I guess you guys can just call me crazy :)

If Vick comes out vs. Miami and has a great game, the people on one side are going to call out the people on the other side, and vice versa if Vick has another bad game.

Here lies the problem. Why on earth would FALCON FANS feel the need to rub anything in to fellow FALCON FANS. If Vick lights up the NFL the rest of the year I really hope noone on here reverts to the grade school saying of, "ah ha, I told you so". What would that accomplish? And why would people say the same if Vick continued be on of the worse rated passers this year? Is someones agenda more important then the team? Somtimes after reading some posts, I kinda think it is to some of these people.

I dont need to name names. These are people from both sides of the Vick isle. They kow who they are. The 1st admendment guarentees you the right to say what you want, but also remember is guarentees the right for rebuttle.

Like I said before, we are 5-2 and could ery well get back-to-back winning season for the first time ever. Lets just concentrate on that.

"One game at a time"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Rebuttle is one thing but the original thread was devolving into something very unproductive.

As far as the bye week goes I've already stated what we need to do there: fundamentals! The receivers need to remember the process of looking the ball into their hands and locking it down; Vick on going to his check down receiver; the entire defense on TACKLING.

The biggest problem I've seen all year is a failure to some of the most basic things.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:08 pm 
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I want a change on defense. Not in personel, but in scheme. Our defense looks alot like Wade Philips' defense except the change from a 3-4 to 4-3.

Our corners suck. J-Web needs to be cut and we need to find a strategy to play to his strengths, and doubling whoever he is covering with Scott IS NOT the answer. That only seems to make things worse. I think someone also needs to wake Keith Brooking up. 1 good game this year? Thats it?

Jenks has a severe case of butterfingers and thats a huge problem. I want to see Roddy get more PT this second half. He seems to know what to do to catch a pass from Vick. I also want to see Dunn more active in the passing game, not Griff.

And we discussed this thoroughly early in the season but hey Knapp, lets be more aggresive on offense with the deep ball!!! Two deep plays a game are not nearly enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:20 pm 
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vickisthebest wrote:
I want a change on defense. Not in personel, but in scheme. Our defense looks alot like Wade Philips' defense except the change from a 3-4 to 4-3.


This is true that we run a lot of soft man and basic zone coverages of which we don't seem to be able to handle too well. If we had coverage safeties it would work but we don't.

vickisthebest wrote:
Our corners suck. J-Web needs to be cut and we need to find a strategy to play to his strengths, and doubling whoever he is covering with Scott IS NOT the answer. That only seems to make things worse. I think someone also needs to wake Keith Brooking up. 1 good game this year? Thats it?


I agree here after DeLo he has no help. Webster is as streaky as a corner can get he would be much better taking over as the nickle back. We really need one more starting quality corner. Webster & Mathis or Cash as the dimeback would probably be pretty good.

vickisthebest wrote:
Jenks has a severe case of butterfingers and thats a huge problem. I want to see Roddy get more PT this second half. He seems to know what to do to catch a pass from Vick. I also want to see Dunn more active in the passing game, not Griff.


While I would like to see more Dunn and less WR player I'd also like to see Griffith get more attention. We haven't used him much. I really do think this offense needs to concentrate on working the edges and screen passes and try and lure the corners into a false sense of security. I'd like to see more Dunn & Griffith in the flats and short comeback routes by our receivers. Then come out with some play action and go deep while hopefully catching the secondary asleep. But clearly Vick's bread & butter is the short stuff. I would also like to see Roddy get a little more time. We need to see a few more 3 receiver sets. Knapp is far too obssessed with 2-TE, 2-WR sets.

I remember the Raiders offense that got them to the Super Bowl that would be very effective here. Granted we don't need to pass to run like they did with Garner.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:29 pm 
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Dirty wrote:
We need to see a few more 3 receiver sets. Knapp is far too obssessed with 2-TE, 2-WR sets.


Just to throw it out there, Vick has a passer rating of 79.1 throwing out of the two receiver set and a 59.9 out of the three receiver set. And I'm not sure what my point is.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:47 pm 
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Really? I did not know that. I guess the extra blocking and less options is better for Vick. This is why Knapp is the OC and not me. :)

The offense would be far more exotic under me though. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:16 pm 
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if I were in OC then I'd probably run the offense much like Dan Reeves did minus the horrible goal line calls...I like the hard nosed pound the ball offense he ran...granted it's not all that differant than what we do now, but I liked that Reeves seemed to take a few more shots downfield and we ran the 2 minute offense with him more often than we do now...

that and I think with Reeves we played with a more loose, backyard football style in the passing game...Vick would just run around and recievers would come back to him...havn't seen as much of that with this new offense...

I have never really been a fan of the WCO offense though...I know we don't run a true WCO but I just don't like the dink and dunk approach we have...let's air it out man, get those safeties back off the line...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:41 pm 
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The 2 minute offense was lights out under Dan Reeves. It has since fizzled. Not entirely sure why that is either.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:25 am 
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Would you like a cane to beat that dead horse with? / - there ya go

You guys can talk about this amongst each other. All I have to say is 5-2, #1 rushing team in the league, #2 in sacks, D seems to play great in big games.


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 Post subject: Hmmmm
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:38 am 
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Comp.... isn't this a forum board? I thought we were supposed to talk about stuff like this.

Anyway, I was watching Webster (who I think VTB thought should be cut) and he made some 'tackles' on the sidelines using only his right hand to hold a jersey until somebody else came in and brought the guy down. Did anyone else notice this. It was just odd, the guy got no yards after catch and it was all good but what was with that. He held his left hand to his body like he was hurt but I have heard nothing on it.

Talking about more blocking and less options to help a struggling QB. Did you know that before Garcia came in at Detroit last week, that Joey H wasn't even calling plays in the huddle or aligning the offense pre-snap. It was all being done buy the center. ALL the guy had to do was throw the ball, period, and he couldn't even do that. Now there is a BUST at QB.

MF1

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:57 pm 
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I just don't want to discuss Vick anymore. How a QB is given so much criticism when his team is 5-2 is beyond me.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Comp I am sorry you get so upset with people discussing the problems with our team right now....altough Vick is a part of the reason we win he's not playing well right now...we got two wins regardless because our defense made some big plays against some bad teams...this is all pretty objective discussion...there are a lot of things Vick is doing that he needs to either stop doing (like getting happy feet in the pocket) or do better (like throwing the ball with some touch)...I think I can speak for the entire board when I say we are elated to be 5-2, I for one could not be more excited and proud of our team....at the same time though you cannot fault us for finding the weakness in our team and talking about them, it's what you do on boards like this...

MF...I agree that Webster isn't playing physical enough, but the guy is tiny. If he can keep the wr's from getting YAC then I am ok if he just sort of pushes them out of bounds...he's the best we got for the year so we just kinda have to deal with it unfortunetly...I think//hope Mora and Co see this problem and deal with it in the offseason...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:22 pm 
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Steve-O, I'm sorry you have nothing better to do than try make your intellect look superior to others on the internet. The fact is that calling fans who support Vick nuthuggers is, and will always be, a deragatory & inflamatory remark. So yes I am going to get upset when someone says that. As for you, you can kiss my ass too if you want come into this with your snide comments. How would we have scored those 2 TD's Vick got against the Jets? Duckett wasn't there, Dunn can't get in from inside the 5 to save his life, and even with Schaub nobody is going to catch the ball in the end zone or anywhere else for that matter.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:42 pm 
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I don't try to make my intellect look superior to others, sometimes it just happens....

look man I aint tryin to start a fight, and don't get all pissed off...I never called anyone a nuthugger, I actually refered to myself as a nuthugger in an earlier thread...my point is there are a lot of things not exactly right about this team and Vick is ONE of them, not all of them...there are things Vick needs to do to get better...I love that he wins, I would not choose any other QB in the NFL to lead the Falcons, but he needs to get better at some things...there are not many players in the NFL that can say they don't need to get better at what they do....

actually I am through with this discussion, it's pointless...we are just running in circles...you can be the enternal optimist all you want...we as a fan base need people like you to be the eternal optimist, me I will continue to be objective and comment on what we need to do better...there will be balance in the world and all will be in harmony....

all I ask is to not be so inflammatory when someone doesn't think the same way as you...I didn't think what I posted was all that inflammatory, if I offended you that was never my intent and I am sorry if you were offended...


Last edited by Steve-O on Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:57 pm 
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Quote:
Vick nuthuggers


A Vick nuthugger is one who thinks Vick can do no wrong and will argue that point to the end, blaming everyone else but Vick for the teams problems. I'm not sure if anyone on this board falls into that catagory, but there are some people out there (other boards) where thios does apply.

Vick is not as good as some think and he's also not as bad as some think. He lies somewhere in between.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:29 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Quote:
Vick nuthuggers


A Vick nuthugger is one who thinks Vick can do no wrong and will argue that point to the end, blaming everyone else but Vick for the teams problems. I'm not sure if anyone on this board falls into that catagory, but there are some people out there (other boards) where thios does apply.

Vick is not as good as some think and he's also not as bad as some think. He lies somewhere in between.


And that's the problem I had with that statement. Once you start throwing derogatory names around it ruins the discussion. Sure, Vick gets happy feet and there are 2 good reasons for it. 1) Receivers can't catch the damn ball, 2) Line's passblocking has not been as good the last couple of weeks, and I'm sure Abraham & Grant had something to do with that.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:00 pm 
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well I never called any names so no one get mad at me....

Comp, those are two good reasons for Vick to be uncomfortable, the problem is though that the happy feet didn't just happen last game...and even if his recievers are dropping the ball he needs to stay calm and throw the ball anyway...

like I said a millions times already though Vick is not the only player underachieving right now...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:33 pm 
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Vick is not as good as some think and he's also not as bad as some think. He lies somewhere in between.

Perfectly put Johnny :D

But I must add I fail. I tried to get a thread on what ELSE other then Vick our team needs to work on. Once again, I failed. I guess with the exception of Vick our team is perfect.

Back on point........what do you guys feel we need to work on that does NOT involve Vick?

Answer me this.....does Brooking play with us still? Does Kerney actually play the entire game? Anyone else think Babineaux(sp) is gonna be a beast in years to come? Anyone else wanna see Chauncey get more PT since Brady SMith cant stay healthy to save his life?

Anyone else sick of the bend but dont break philosophy of our secondary?

These are the reasons we have 2 losses.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:29 pm 
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I would love to see both Chauncy & Babs get more snaps then they do now. Although Chauncey is and will likely always be a liability against the run game. I do love Babs but like with Chauncey he's going to be a liability against the run game because his game is exactly like Colemans (only with much better form then crashing the line).

The secondary is horrible and the only way to make it better is to get better players or players with upside on it. What we got isn't working and most are heading towards the downside of their careers (much of the secondary ranges between 28 and 32). We need to overhaul it this off-season.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:11 pm 
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I don't think we have much choice in revamping the secondary. Mathis likely won't return (i'd be surprised) and we could end up letting him go enlight of the knee injury. Cash will comeback but he isn't anything special. Webster has proven to be a steady injury and hasn't contributed much.

Then of course we have Carp who wasn't able to make his comeback. I'm not ready to completely give up on Bryan Scott but I don't see us re-signing him right now. But I think we need a new starting safety, corner, and a nickel back. I think 1/3 to 2/3's of that can be addressed in the draft. I do think we need to get a shutdown corner in the off-season and the only players that really fit that bill are: Will Allen, Brian Williams, and Charles Woodson. Of course each player has their own issues (over priced & injury concerns).

I really wish we would have gone after Smoot or Clements.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:42 pm 
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I'm not ready to start pointing fingers at Webster. I never was a fan of his signing from Day One, but he's playing about as well as expected.

But it seems from all I've seen this year, if a QB is going to target one of our corners and pick on him, he's going to be more successful if he goes after DeLo. I know DeLo is normally matched up with the better receiver, but DeLo is a gambler and right now doesn't have the technique or savvy to win most of his gambles. He has 4 picks, but all but 1 of his 6 career picks have been gimmes. I see it this way:

Jason Webster - 16 games, 1 interception, 12 passes defensed
DeAngelo Hall - 17 games, 1 interception, 9 passes defensed

Those numbers are drawn from taking away Hall's 5 "gimme" picks which resulted in being tallied as passes defensed as well. I realize that Webster only has 2 PD this year, and even if you took away 3 of Hall's from "gimme" picks, he would still have 5, more than twice Webster's totals.

Now I think DeLo is going to improve as time passes by, and Webster is unlikely to significantly improve at 28 years of age, but I think Webster's play has been about on par with Hall's for most of their shared tenure here in Atlanta.

Both players are going to need to step up. My hope for the future would basically be that Webster remains the starter for another year or two. Hopefully this April we can add a solid young cornerback that can immediately step in next year to compete for the nickel spot and then develop into a starter by 2007. I suspect Mathis will return in 2006. His injury is tough, but I don't think he's going to want to end his career on an ejection and mid-week practice injury. Whether he returns to old form is a completely separate question. Cash has been a pleasant surprise, but he too has had injury concerns and is not yet a reliable option for the long term.

I don't want this team to go out and spend $$$ on a free agent corner because corners are so expensive on the open market. Cornerback is one of those positions that demand is so high for starting-caliber players that a consensus below average starter can earn $7 million in bonuses (see Jason Webster).

Solving our CB issues must come via the draft. As for safety, I think we can get a short-term fix in free agency, but we do need to be on the lookout for that rangy enforcer in the draft. Greg Blue?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:18 pm 
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as far as the corners go it's not Webster coverage ability they I question, it's his ability to come up and smack a reviever as soon as he catches the ball. With this bed don't break defense we run we allow shorter throws with the intention of stopping the reciever at the point that he catches the ball. I don't think Webster really does all that good of a job with that. What I'd like to see is for us to go after someone like Lenny Walls the cb for denver. He's big and physical (6'4) and while he may not be a great #2 corner he'd be a killer nickle. He'd come a lot cheaper than most of the other FA cb's too....we can always draft a young corner and try and develop him to take Websters spot in a year or two.

I am also ready to give up on Carpenter. He's just not really done anything since his return. At one point people were talking about him being a potentially great safety, well I guess that's sort of out the window huh? Scott I think can be effective he's just not showing it at the moment.

We need to re-tool the d-line some as well. Going into next season I see us needing another RDE to start for Brady. I hope he gets past all these injuries and can give us another year or to but I am beginning to doubt that. We need another DT to at least play in the rotation. Lake had one good game and I'd love to see him continue to play well, but I am not counting those chickens quite yet either. I'm still undecided on Babs, more because he doesn't play a whole lot. I'd love to see him get some more snaps, but the only way he gets on the field is when we take Coleman off, unless he plays end, which may not be a terrible idea either. I'd love to find a monster DT somewhere though. Someone who's got a big body but can also move some too...Someone like a Vince Wilfork.


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