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 Post subject: Dirty
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Dirty has been in a bad mood for a couple of weeks now and it is bringing me down :cry: . People trash talk, people want what they can't have, everyone wants Manning or Brady blah, blah, blah. Schaub threw for 298 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INTs and we lost. He made us look like we had WRs... and we lost. Vick throws for 116 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INTs and we win. We are a run team, period. Why is everyone so upset all the time about our WRs? I don't hear the Steelers raising the roof for Big Ben's head because he threw 9 completions on 14 attempts Sunday in a huge win at Cinci. Hey Dirty, Vick completed 11 passes :twisted: so turn that frown upside down. If the Steelers run then the league says 'that is Steelers football', and guess what... THEY WIN! And guess what... WE WIN! We lead the league in rushing, we lead the closest team by 30 yards per game (which I assume is why we share the same record as the Steelers [and both teams have lost a game WITHOUT their starting QB] since their defense outranks ours by 20 odd positions). I think we should just calm down and be happy as we have a QB that leads us to wins and in any league or situation that makes him a 'great' QB.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:20 pm 
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MF the problem is the play of Vick in the passing game is why we won't win a title. Everyone has seen what happens when we play a team in the post-season that can lock down the run game. If you do that we are effectively out of luck and will likely lose.

I don't want Manning or Brady I want Vick to be able to consistently hit 55% and knock back 200 to 250 yards a night. I'm not asking for that much just to be enough threat to keep defenses on their heels. Right now his only threat is that he can run.

I don't have any problems with our receivers just the guy throwing them the ball. I always have and always will. I support the Falcons and I'm a fan but I've seem some bad football lately. We won't be perfect I know that but some of our problems are so painfully bad.

The blueprint to beat us? Stop the run and play 3 or more receivers and we will be hard pressed to win.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:15 pm 
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Interesting how some want to compare Vick to McNabb and you say McNabb still puts up numbers yet you fail to mention McNabb is on pace to throw the ball almost 700 times this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:45 pm 
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vickisthebest wrote:
Interesting how some want to compare Vick to McNabb and you say McNabb still puts up numbers yet you fail to mention McNabb is on pace to throw the ball almost 700 times this year.


Actually I was referencing McNabb prior to T.O. and this season. Not the current version of McNabb Vickis.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:21 pm 
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Actually I was referencing McNabb prior to T.O. and this season. Not the current version of McNabb Vickis

Oops! My bad!

Even still......McNabb sucks. Trust me he is just as accurate as Vick. What makes McNabb look better is his weapons. We have one in Crump. They have TO, Westbrook and LJ Smith. Todd freakin Pinkston led the NFL in YPC last year, not because he's good, Pinkston sucks but because of the other weapons.

We need to use Dunn more like Westbrook and we need a reciever that can prove he can catch anything near him, something we havent had since Shawn Jefferson.

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 Post subject: Bad Football
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:33 pm 
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I support the Falcons and I'm a fan but I've seen some bad football lately. We won't be perfect I know that but some of our problems are so painfully bad


Have you watched football this year? I can't find a team that doesn't stink up the joint. Everyone sucks, blocked kicks, missed FGs, INTs, Fumbles, 4th quarter comebacks... sheesh. If you have NFL Sunday Ticket it is a day long fest of some of the worst football ever recorded. Try picking winners from week to week, even the 'experts' are below .500. Only Indy with their cake schedule is undefeated and they haven't looked like the scoring powerhouse from last year. At this rate I would say Vick has a darn good shot at winning a title with Atlanta because the team you are saying can beat us doesn't exist, at least not on an every week basis. I know you were upset last night about us trying to give up the game, BUT WE DIDN'T!, and you can't say that for the Chargers, Broncos, or Cowboys. We may look horrible, and we may look awesome, but so does everyone else so all we can really look at is the Ws, and to answer your question in another post, YES YOU SHOULD BE MORE HAPPY ABOUT THAT!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:38 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:

I don't have any problems with our receivers just the guy throwing them the ball. I always have and always will. I support the Falcons and I'm a fan but I've seem some bad football lately. We won't be perfect I know that but some of our problems are so painfully bad.

The blueprint to beat us? Stop the run and play 3 or more receivers and we will be hard pressed to win.


Are you serious? Jenkins drops a sure first down, Finn drops the best pass of the night that would have converted a 3rd & 17 easily, Dunn drops an easy one, Crump drops 2 that both go for picks, and you have no problem with our receivers? Right now they are the biggest weakness on this team.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:15 pm 
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some of those drops were really terrible passes....both of the int's thrown at Crumpler were horrible...Vick should have never thrown the first one and the second one was behind Crump....our recievers were actually getting open last night for the first time in a while...Vick isn't playing as well as he can and should...if this continues we will pay for it at the most inopportune time...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:34 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
dirtybirdnw wrote:

I don't have any problems with our receivers just the guy throwing them the ball. I always have and always will. I support the Falcons and I'm a fan but I've seem some bad football lately. We won't be perfect I know that but some of our problems are so painfully bad.

The blueprint to beat us? Stop the run and play 3 or more receivers and we will be hard pressed to win.


Are you serious? Jenkins drops a sure first down, Finn drops the best pass of the night that would have converted a 3rd & 17 easily, Dunn drops an easy one, Crump drops 2 that both go for picks, and you have no problem with our receivers? Right now they are the biggest weakness on this team.


The pass to Jenkins was high, real high. He made a nice effort just to get his paws on the ball. Finn did drop one and it was a nice pass, and the atleast one of the interceptions to Crump was well behind him. And also, I don't see any comments on it, but Rowdy Roddy made a real nice catch for 9 yards I believe on an off targert (high) throw as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:36 pm 
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Roddy's catch was pretty impressive...Mora commented on it in his Tues presser....Hopefully Roddy will break out sometime this season...


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 Post subject: Yulin
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:09 pm 
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Yulin is dead on as I just watched the tape a second time. Vick was crap passing but what did we expect? Another win for the Falcons.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:13 pm 
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I say I'm don't have a problem with our receivers because ones a rookie and the second is a first year starter. Dez White was demoted and probably won't be re-signed and we already go rid of Price. There isn't much more we can do since our secondary is now a far greater concern.

I do find it interesting that when someone calls out Vick that everyone immediatly comes up with more excuses then a politician trying to steal money from Social Security. So far only Angry and myself are the only ones to really call Vick out on the board. I'm sure Angry will second this: I hope we are wrong but it's been 5 years and Vick still can't throw with touch or accuracy. But he wins so he has my partial support.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:18 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
dirtybirdnw wrote:

I don't have any problems with our receivers just the guy throwing them the ball. I always have and always will. I support the Falcons and I'm a fan but I've seem some bad football lately. We won't be perfect I know that but some of our problems are so painfully bad.

The blueprint to beat us? Stop the run and play 3 or more receivers and we will be hard pressed to win.


Are you serious? Jenkins drops a sure first down, Finn drops the best pass of the night that would have converted a 3rd & 17 easily, Dunn drops an easy one, Crump drops 2 that both go for picks, and you have no problem with our receivers? Right now they are the biggest weakness on this team.


Our biggest weakness is the play of our safeties; the second is the play of our corners. Finneran on most nights is lights out but much of the receiver play originated from the hand of the passer.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:48 pm 
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Dirty I was usually the first to jump up and defend Vick but I am about to join you and Johnny....I am getting a little sick of seeing Vick miss open recievers...I think every year he shows improvement only to regress as the year goes on...I dunno what the problem is...I also agree that if this problem doesn't get fixed we don't stand a chance in the playoffs...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:04 pm 
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you could see it in vick's body language and in his eyes in the fourth quarter, he had lost complete confidence in his passing. one wonders when he will have that 'damn, im not a very good passer' realization and how it will affect his game. up to this point his main excuse is getting used to the system but sooner or later he's got to realize that's not going to cut it. i'm not a football pundit or expert and i mainly focus on the falcs, but i don't think i've ever heard a qb use that excuse for a bad passing game.i think up till this season a lot of us held hope that he'd actually get better as a passer but it's just not happening. he peaked with dan reeves and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better unless they bring in a qb mentor or something. that being said his relatively ineffective passing is what will win us games in the regular season (it shortens the game, keeps our fast and small D off the field, created a grinding ugly ball which the falcs usually win) and defeat us in the post season (when we face a top notch run D that exposes us for the one dimensional team that we are). i say in the post season if we really want to win, when they stop vick , bring in shaub for the 2nd and 3rd quarter when vick usually sucks anyhow. like i said i know it will never happen but if they utilized schuab's passing skills in that situation i think it would be worth a try.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:17 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
And also, I don't see any comments on it, but Rowdy Roddy made a real nice catch for 9 yards I believe on an off targert (high) throw as well.


THAT is exactly what I am getting at. Vick is not Manning. Our receivers have to work harder to catch the ball & IT IS PATHETIC THAT THIS ROOKIE GETS THAT & NOBODY ELSE DOES. Roddy is going to be a legit #1. Jenkins might not be here in a few years.

The fact is Vick only completely whiffed on 7 of his 26 passes. The rest were catchable balls, with one being the possible exception. The ball thrown behind Crumpler went straight through his hands. I mean where is he going after he catches it anyways? He isn't Joey Galloway, catch the damn ball guys, come on.

I have watched plenty of games where former NFL players say if the ball is in arm's reach it has to be caught...why is it this doesn't apply to our receivers?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Chad Johnson's rookie year - 28 catches for 329 yards and 1 td.

Hines Ward rookie year - 15 catches for 246 yards and no td's.


Both were backups in their rookie years and made legitimate contributions to their teams. Both were promoted to starters in their 2nd years, and let's look at their production:

Johnson - 69 catches for 1166 yards (16.9 avg) and 5 TDs
Ward - 61 catches for 638 yards (10.5 avg) and 7 TDs

And it only went up from there. My point is not to say I don't think Jenkins or White will be quality starters. I don't know if they will, but based on how they've played so far in this league, they aren't going to be on par with any of those guys mentioned above. Now, one could say that is because they are coming to a team with a weak QB. But in the cases of Ward and Johnson, they both entered the league with Kordell and Jon Kitna (back when Kitna and the Bengals sucked really bad), and both managed to produce despite it. So that doesn't disprove that argument, but weakens it.

I think Jenkins can be a 40-60 catch starter, and the same for Roddy. But I see both more as Ashley Lelie/Donte' Stallworth caliber starters. Capable of some big games, but not reliable #1 targets. Those duties are reserve for true #1s like Horn and Rod Smith.

Vick and Crumpler developed a rapport immediately. And Vick/Jenkins and Vick/Roddy is not the same. Time will help, but from the looks of it so far, it seems a bit naive to expect it to ever develop to the same level that some of the better QB-WR duos are in the league. Plex/Eli developed almost immediately, T.O./McNabb, Palmer/Chad Johnson, Delhomme/Steve Smith, etc. You have to ask yourself why is it that these relationships aren't developing in Atlanta as quickly? Is it because of VIck or is it the receiver. Whichever you choose, I think you have to come to the conclusion that something somewhere in the equation is "wrong", therefore it's going to be very difficult to get the "right" answer at the end.

The_Incomparable wrote:
Roddy is going to be a legit #1"


I don't agree, but it may be because we disagree on our definition of a "legit #1". I think there are maybe a dozen or so receivers in the league that I would consider a "legit #1". THere's probably 15-20 more that I would call a good #2/decent #1 target, meaing that if they're your #1 receiver, you could do better, but you don't necessarily have to.

I think for Roddy, probably at best, he could make it to that second category.

I'm not giving up on anybody by any means, I'm just not going to hold my breath to the day where Roddy or Jenkins are 70 catch-7 TD/yr. receivers. Because I think I'll be holding my breath a long time.

As for Gonzo and Gates being the #1 options on their teams, the difference I would say is that they are having balls thrown to them by 2 of the more accurate QBs in the league. And you can recall how much the Chiefs passing offense struggled before Trent Green and Vermeil got there. If Vick could throw the ball as good as Brees/Green, I wouldn't have a problem with Crump being the #1 guy. But if Vick were that good, this thread wouldn't exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:07 pm 
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I'm just curious as to when we officialy call Vick a bust as a quarterback in the NFL. So far IMO save for some streaks he has been just that. Yes we win games with him (and why Vick or no Vick makes that much difference I have no idea outside of time of possession) but he has been abyssmal as a passer in this league. He's 5 years in (4 years had he not come out early) and has worked with the same offense and receivers for back to back seasons now.

I suppose I'll give Vick one more year of grace time. But if Vick 06' is posting the same numbers Vick 05' has been posting so far he's done in my book.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:13 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
I'm just curious as to when we officialy call Vick a bust as a quarterback in the NFL. So far IMO save for some streaks he has been just that. Yes we win games with him (and why Vick or no Vick makes that much difference I have no idea outside of time of possession) but he has been abyssmal as a passer in this league. He's 5 years in (4 years had he not come out early) and has worked with the same offense and receivers for back to back seasons now.

I suppose I'll give Vick one more year of grace time. But if Vick 06' is posting the same numbers Vick 05' has been posting so far he's done in my book.


No, Vick is far from a bust. He wins games, period. That's what it's all about. He is just never going to be the elite passer that the fans, the media and the league wants him to be. He is so hyped and marketed, no one can live up to the expectations placed upon his shoulders.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Let me qualify my bust post. Vick is a bust as a passer. I do not doubt his ability to win games and the odd need our team has to have him start in order to be a .500 team or better.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:15 pm 
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One of these games the receivers are going to come out & catch the ball & get the ball rolling on our passing game. Then I won't have to read this crap anymore.........lol


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:12 pm 
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Yulin wrote:
I think most people would have a good case for arguing he's a bust as a passer right now. However, as everyone is preaching this year, he's never going to be a full-blow-in-the-pocket-passer that we all dream of him being, unless he makes huge, unforseen strides.


I agree with that. Cunningham didn't become what most consider to be a reliable pocket passer until his 13th year in the league, after two major knee injuries and well after he was a capable of being a true running threat (it had been 5 years since his last 300+ yard season). He had good seasons throwing the football before that point, but he was still considered a running QB.

It's hard to gauge where Vick's career will wind up and be seen in retrospect. These are just stabs in the dark, but here are the more probable paths I forsee:

1. Vick continues to develop as a passer here in Atlanta, and quiets most of his critics, although he'll porbably never silence all of them. He may/may not be considered a good passer, but a reliable one.

2. Vick suffers an injury in the not too distant future. A backup in Atlanta steps up beautifully in his absence (maybe Schaub, maybe someone else). Vick loses favor in Atlanta, is benched and eventually moves on to another city. There he will probably be a pseudo-backup/starter, where he continues to develop. At some point several years down the road, he gets his chance to shine again and has a resurrection-like season or end to his career (most similar to Cunningham's path.)

3. At some point in the not too distant future, whether due to poor performance or injury, Vick is cast out of Atlanta and spends the rest of his career as a backup, where in retrospect people will consider him one of the all-time busts, mostly because he never lived up to the lofty expectations placed upon him.

But in truth, if Vick ever does have that seaosn where he looks like the passer that people envisioned, I don't expect it to be as a Falcon.

The vast majority of Falcon fans will continue to support Vick as long as he wins football games. And that seems the case with Mora & Co. I think McKay would rather have a more reliable passer, but he can't justify replacing Vick until he stops winning 60-70% of his games. If the Falcons struggle for a year or two and Vick looks like he has lost that magic, I think you'll see McKay rather quick to pull the reins from his hands.

If it comes to that, I don't know when. But I don't for a moment expect Vick to be winning at the same rate several years down the line if he's not throwing the football better. Defenses are going to evolve and find it easier down the road to stop him.

There are going to be those observers that believe every #1 pick that is not as prolific as Peyton Manning is going to be a bust. These are the same guys that are lumping Vick and Carr as potential busts already, and jumping hard and fast on the Carson Palmer bandwagon.

There are those that are going to feel that despite his passing deficiency, the measure of Mike Vick will be if he can win a Super Bowl. If he can do that, then they say he did what he needed to do. I think this crowd is going to be the largest of observers.

And then there's going to be a minority of observers, who I believ will mostly be composed of Falcon fans that feel that if Vick won the majority of his games at the end of the career, he is not a bust.

I think if Vick truly wants to shake the critics, he has to set passing records or win a Super Bowl, and there's no other way around it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Pudge wrote:

I agree with that. Cunningham didn't become what most consider to be a reliable pocket passer until his 13th year in the league, after two major knee injuries and well after he was a capable of being a true running threat (it had been 5 years since his last 300+ yard season). He had good seasons throwing the football before that point, but he was still considered a running QB.




Cunningham didn't become a great pocket passer until he went to Minnesota & started throwing to Randy Moss....lol......As we can plainly see from Culpepper, that would make anyone a great pocket passer. This is why we spent our last two #1 picks on receivers, but for this offense to evolve they will have to work harder on playing strong at the catch & pulling the ball in.

Like every other QB in the league Vick cannot put the pass on the money 90% of the time. Manning did it 80% of the time against a weak ass Texans D and Vick did it 73% of the time againt a good Jets pass D. The big difference is that Manning was throwing to 4 guys who did not drop a single pass, and Stokely who dropped 2. James, Clark, Wayne, & Harrison did not drop a single pass and that kept Manning's confidence up, which is what needs to happen for Vick.

Is Vick a bust as a passer? Not in the least. Are the receivers not playing as well as should be EXPECTED (not perfect, but solid NFL play in the passing gajme)? Not even close. Even Alge let a couple slip out of his grasp Monday, and while the one over the middle was partly Alge playing soft & partly the Jets making a great play, the pass that was behind him & went through his hands should have been caught.


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