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Learn what???

Forget??...I don't think that is an option...not as long as there are TV's, ...or computers. There are thousands of Cho's out there just waiting to try to top the new "High score". Murder is bad. Death is bad. But seriously....who is to say what death is worse?? Being tragically gunned downed in a "safe" classroom enviornment, or having your whole family blown to smithereens my a 500 pound bomb in the mountains of afghanistan. Or being one of the 30 american kids being killed per week in Irag. Why is the American mentality so warped as to sell handguns over the counter in the first place??? Most people never take the leap from wasting 1000 people a day in a video game, to doing it in real life. Then again, when the option is to become famous, and have instant immortality....it can be a very easy transition.

- Obviously this event hit home pretty hard for myself. Just wanted to post this as an FYI. We ARE Virginia Tech!

Spread the word - Orange and Maroon Effect

Virginia Tech family members across the country have united to declare this Friday, April 20th, an “Orange and Maroon Effect” day to honor those killed in the tragic events on campus Monday, and to show support for Virginia Tech students, faculty, administrators, staff, alumni, and friends. “Orange and Maroon Effect” was born several years ago as an invitation to Tech fans to wear orange and maroon to Virginia Tech athletic events. We invite everyone from all over the country to be a part of the Virginia Tech family this Friday, to wear orange and maroon to support the families of those who were lost, and to support the school and community we all love so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSuidxE ... ed&search=

- Obviously this event hit home pretty hard for myself. Just wanted to post this as an FYI. We ARE Virginia Tech!

Spread the word - Orange and Maroon Effect

Virginia Tech family members across the country have united to declare this Friday, April 20th, an “Orange and Maroon Effect” day to honor those killed in the tragic events on campus Monday, and to show support for Virginia Tech students, faculty, administrators, staff, alumni, and friends. “Orange and Maroon Effect” was born several years ago as an invitation to Tech fans to wear orange and maroon to Virginia Tech athletic events. We invite everyone from all over the country to be a part of the Virginia Tech family this Friday, to wear orange and maroon to support the families of those who were lost, and to support the school and community we all love so much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cSuidxE ... ed&search=

In response to Birdbrain's take on America's "warped" mentality because of the selling of handguns, do you honestly think a nut like Cho wouldn't have found a way to get a handgun if he couldn't buy one legally? It's a darn shame that no one else was armed so Cho could have been gunned down before 33 people were killed.

And why bring up how bad you think America is? What does America have to do with Cho? He was a sick person who unfortunately happened to be a college student in the United States. Violent acts and sick humans exist throughout the world, not just in the United States.

Sadly, I can't say I am surprised that it only took some people a few minutes before they turned this into a political issue, and for for them to spew their dislike for America.

Quite easy to take the comments out of context. My question regarding the selling of handguns in america has nothing to do with bashing america, or commenting on the political state of america. However, America is one of the few countries in the world where it is easy to buy a handgun. Would a ban have stopped Cho???...not likely as it is very difficult to stop a madman.....but my point is it shouldn't be so easy either. Cho had documented mental problems, which should have prohibited him from buying a gun, but apparently it wasn't reported and fell through the cracks.

Next time you choose to debate an issue, get your angles straight....no where did i "spew my dislike for America". I love my country and have served it well. But loving it and agreeing with its politics are two different things...I'm happy that i have a different perspective, and that I haven't been brainwashed to believe everything they tell me. And if you seriously believe that i was the first one to comment on the obvious political issues present in this tragedy, then you need to get better cable service.

I agree with BB. I support the 2nd amendment rights of people, but at the same time there is a point where respecting people's rights crosses into the lines of fostering violence.

I don't pretend to be up on all the gun laws in this country, but I do think the process of acquiring a gun is far too easy. And it seems that the only way in which you can be barred from buying a gun is if you've already killed somebody.

Hey, and this section of the forums is where political discussion is certainly allowed. And frankly, I don't see why it's okay that only certain human beings are allowed to be married in this country, but all human beings are allowed to purchase and own a deadly weapon.

The 2nd Amendment is no longer of federal concern. Its a states concern. We have 50 different states (and a district) with 50 (51) different gun laws.

The United States of America does not make gun laws. New Jersey makes guns laws. Georgia makes gun laws. Virginia makes guns laws etc.....

Thanks to the 10th amendment.

Its up to the Govenor and State Senate to impose bans and restrictions in the form of legislation and to lay down a process for which a consumer and retailer are to follow if one wants to own a gun.

Some make it easier than others. Some allow guns their neighboring state will not allow. Its all part of a States Right.

It still doesn't effect the argument, whether it is Federal or States rights. The reason is it now in the States hands is the Republican congress decided to let the Brady Bill (named after the guy who took the bullet for your guy Ronnie) expire. The problem goes much deeper into the public's psyche and how handguns and other weapons that have little or nothing to do with hunting or protection.I still find it ironic that we invaded a sovereign country to take away their non-existent weapons of mass destuction, yet 30,000 people a year are killed by our own weapons.

The reason is it now in the States hands is the Republican congress decided to let the Brady Bill (named after the guy who took the bullet for your guy Ronnie) expire.

Fundamental differences. It shouldve always belonged to the states. The current President & last Congress let it expire because of this belief.

But thats not the point. I was illustrating that we dont have mandated federal gun laws as it was alluded to by others' posts. The states are free to write whatever gun laws they damn well want. And this was done looooong before the current President and last Congress. So lets blame someone else why the tenth amendment was part of the Bill of Rights.

I'll forgive you if you missed my point

BTW.....The bill shouldve been named after Timothy "The Human Shield" McCarthy.

Ahh no. The 10th Amendment is pretty meaningless (despite its lofty wording) and the "State's Rights" issue was decided on 2 July 1863 at Little Round Top.

States are free to pass their own laws, but this is a federal issue and involves not only the horribly twisted Second Amendment, but the Commerce clause. It is the very nature of the patchwork legislation that is causing many of the problems.

The old saw of "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" is a perfect discriminator. If he has a pistol - he is a bad guy. How about you can have a pistol, but it has to be a muzzle loader that were available in the 1780s. Yeah, I am just going to the extreme, but simply to make a point.

Whenever somebody says it is a State problem, all that means that it will be even more screwed up. The smaller the government gets, the more corrupt and subject to the whims of special interests and idiots (the pinacle of idiocy being the local school board). I have not the solution to the gun problem in the US, but what we have now doesn't work.

W

Thats one interpretation of the legislation. A liberal interpretaion. (****I'm not using liberal negatively, I know alot of liberals are offended by the word. Embrace it and be proud of it. when I want to insult the left I use socialist )

I dont agree with what you said about small government is more prone to corruption (point in case Lousiana). That in my opinion is just summitting to bad.

And to say that ANY part of the Bill of Rights is meanningless is appauling. We wont have a constitution today if the Bills of Rights werent included. The framers were very, VERY clear on this.


I'm not going to try and debate legislation to a J.A.G. / Judge.(am I correct Wease?)

I dont want to look silly

I don't pretend to have the answer to gun control or how to curb violence in this country. I respect and support people's rights and desires to want to take a rifle and go out and blow some deer, or bear, or turkey's brains out from time to time.

Banning the use and/or possession of a gun is not going to eradicate gun violence. I'm not naive enough to believe that. But I do think it will significantly curb it. Cutting it by as little as 20% would be a huge step in the right direction. I mean instead of spending millions of $$$ on pursuing, arresting, prosecuting, and jailing a guy that just wanted to sell 2 dime bags of weed, instead spend that money on doing the same to the guy that poses a real danger to society that has a 9mm tucked in his pants and has no intention of using that to procure this year's Thanksgiving dinner.

I'm not saying that is the particular solution, but it's a potential one. I mean how many more incidents are we going to need like this before something real is done?

The world of 2007 is a lot different than the world of 1789, just like the world was a lot different in 1789 than it was 1571.

Holy over reaction.

There are millions, yes millions of law abiding citizens who carry hand guns every day and you don't hear anything about them.....you only hear about it when some whacko snaps like what happened at VT.

Right or wrong, it's too late to ban 'em. They WILL find there way into the hands of killers. Drugs are illegal, but they still come into the country by the tons....guns would be no different.

Well, AJ51, I think it's slightly different. People aren't physically addicted to guns like they are to drugs.

I could go on a rather long psychological rant proving there are some addictive properties to having Guns. But i will keep it short. Guns are both a cultural and political extension of power. Many aspects of drug use, or any other forms of addiction (food, gambling etc) provide the user a sense of security, a sense of "action" and compulsive properties. After you kill your first deer, bear or human....it gets easier after the first one. The sense of power that some feel when they are "packing" produces endorphins just like running or playing video games. When you talk about "taking away their Guns" they react many times in the same manner as when you threaten to control their cigarettes, liquor or dope. It isn't about constitutional rights, it is all about power...it has always been about power.Cho could have been stopped many times along the road to this tragedy, but being a strong believer in Chaos theory i understand that things happen. As i said before there are other Cho's right now fantasizing about how they will top the new record. They are going over the details in their warped minds, all of them in various stages of planning. Some will get help, some will commit lesser forms of mass murder, and some will kill themselves when the disease process advances to the point of no other choice. Here in Germany we have some of the best gun laws in the world...yet a madman killed 16 kids in a school with rifles and guns he was allowed to have as a member of a Gun Sporting club. His copycat fantasies of Columbine were a pre-cursor to the crime. The discussion that needs to take place concerning new or improved gun laws needs to be multi-faceted, included better screening for Mental Health issues, the "over the counter" aspect to buying guns and the relevance of having handguns in the first place. But just like other polarizing issues such as race, abortion and terrorism the power related rhetoric from our "leaders" will drown out any sense of action. In order to dominate an issue for political gain you have to exploit the issue, and good or bad that is all that will come of this tragedy.

Birdbrain,

I never said you were the first person to turn this tragedy into a political issue. I don't run to check the message boards every other second so I had no clue what your take was until the day after the event. Your boys at NBC news, who also by the way turned Cho into an action hero for the sick and poured salt into the wounds of the victim's familes (yet fired Don Imus for offending the Rutgers team with "nappy headed hoe"), had you beat!

As for getting facts straight, I think that is what you need to do. You claimed 30,000 people in Iraq have been killed with our own weapons. I like how in that 30,000 you include terrorists and insurgents as if they were honest civilians. There is a huge difference between an insurgent and a civilian so get that straight. Have you actually served in Iraq? Or are you just getting your information from Michael Moore? You wonder how I could possibly think you dislike America...but why the hell do you choose to gloat about the so-called failure on Iraq during a thread about the V-Tech murders? The two have nothing to do with one another, but you just can't resist to take a shot at the military. And by the way, I have don't know really what you have done while serving for the military, but would I be correct to say that you haven't served in Iraq? And if you have, I would love to know with what branch and what unit. I was there from 03-04. If you have been there as well, I would be surprised because you would have a differnt outlook from being there instead of just watching what you see NBC news tells you every night. And you want to talk about brainwashing.

And quit complaining about guns. Cho was already declared a danger to himself and others by a court and no one did a damn thing! He should have been locked up. Someone please tell me why he was still allowed to be at V-Tech anyways! There were so many read flags and no one did a damn thing.

Cho should have never been allowed to purchase a handgun. That is for sure. For one, he never was even an American citizen. And then you had the court declaring him a danger, and he should have been arressted for stalking those women on campous. But sadly, Virginia is one of the easiest states to purchase a handgun. That needs to be fixed asap. But don't pretend he wouldn't have found another means to carry out his hatred. The only way to stop people like this is to actually lock him up when he is declared a danger before it is too late. Being able to purchase a handgun has nothing to do with this.

Handguns shouldn't be blamed...the people who should are the idiots who let him walk around campous free when they already knew he was nuts, and the moron school president who didn't do anything after the first two people were killed. Or even blame NBC before you blame lack of gun control with the countless copy cat murders that they have inspired. Cho even mentioned the Coumbine kids who were also glorified by the media. There are so many things that contribute to these things that are right under our nose, but people just want to complain about 1 thing. Enough already.

I agree with everything except your comment about the president of the university and by proxy your opinion of the Tech police department and cheif. The university had no reason to shut down or lock down or whatever you want to say. The first eye witness left to go to class with out giving a statement, the ones who did talk to cops told them it was a white american with greasy black hair who sped away from campus in a jacked up black pick up truck. Really no one saw anything or saw the gunman actually leaving, they just guessed. NO ONE CAN PREDICT A PSYCHOTIC EPISODE. Plenty of violent crimes happen all over America from inner citys to small towns, to rural Amercia but MOST OF THEM STOP THERE. You can almost count on one hand how many violent crimes have turned into mass murders like this one. There was no way to know that this shooter was not done. And what if they had locked down campus, the insides of the buildings and dorms weren't sealed, so you would have sealed the shooter into a dorm building or even the post office downtown where he would still have had plenty of victims and his chains to block the exits. Do you get an email or a public service announcement every time an apparently isolated violent crime happens in your town, or within 5-10 miles of your work and or residence? The psychologial red flags are legitamte and I expect that to be the largest take away from this event but at some point we have to understand it is college there are depressed individuals out there who seek help, not all or even many of them should be kicked out of school, removed from a viable support structure. It is a fine line, one that I am not qualified to speak on. Sorry for the rant, this has hit home for me, I am an alumnus and was on campus Monday when it happend, and I am sick and tired of the people who attack the school's leadership no more then 4 hours into this horrible tragedy.

You probably are a good kid, but when you respond to someone you really need to stick to the facts and the context of the content. I went to the first Gulf War to set your mind at ease. But if you think that all soldiers/Officers who served think it is a just war then you are once again, sadly mistaken. There are many who served who are trying their best to get the message out that this war isn't just, but a criminal act on the part of the Bush Administration. You claim that an insurgent isn't a civilian....remember the term is an invention of the Bushies. Right now we are in the middle of a civil War where soldiers from both sides are trying to win a struggle that has been going on for over a thousand years. We are in the way. Anytime you destabilize an entire region with faulty foreign policy, use deceit to manipulate your own People and invade a sovereign country bad things are bound to happen. This is a religious based conflict and we shouldn't be involved.

As to your assumption that there isn't a connection between the VT tragedy and the lives lost in Iraq, my point was that there was a common denominator in the two and that would be of course death. I have heard the term "heroes" once again applied to the VT slayings. Without a doubt there were some great acts of heroism on that campus on Monday. But being murdered doesn't make you a hero. It was the same on 911. Many times it was said the 3000 "heroes"...etc... The Jewish professor who stopped Cho from entering the room was a hero. The firefighters who died were heroes...but you can't lump them all into the same class. Sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The guy in NYC who saved the guy from being run over by the subway car is a hero. The connection between the coverage of the VT slayings and the lack of coverage of the soldiers or everyday citizens who commit heroic acts was my point.

What is your point about me watching NBC??? I watch various news programs, i even thought NBC/CBS shouldn't have fired Imus. Saying I'm brainwashed by watching the news is just plain ignorant. When you debate an issue try to stay within the boundries of common sense.I am not a fan of Big Media, but you stated that NBC "inspired countless copycat murders".....i would love to see just a small bit of evidence of that accusation.

Call me ignorant, but I disagree with the fact that VT failed to do something. Hindsight of course is 20/20, but that is no excuse for the negligence the VT police and administration showed.

Almost anywhere else in America, someone commits a double murder in a residence at 7:15, that place is going to be locked down by the police by 7:45.

I am a recent college graduate of the University of Pittsburgh, I understand how it's very difficult to reign in the amount of pedestrian, vehicular traffic that occurs on a college campus. Damn near impossible, but at least they could have tried.

Classes should have been cancelled, the campus should have been on lockdown. If you went into work one day and found 2 dead bodies in the janitor's closet, work wouldn't continue like nothing happened. If you were on a morning jog with your dog and found 2 dead bodies in a ditch in your neighborhood, the rest of the of the day wouldn't be normal.

Perhaps VT didn't have the manpower to pull this off. Perhaps they tried, but simply failed. But these aren't excuses. In this post-Katrina, post-9/11 America we live in, there is no excuse for poor preparation. Could this have happened on any campus across America? Certainly, but that's still not an excuse.

You lock down that campus, you tell people classes are cancelled, and you tell people whether they are in their dorm, class, at a cafeteria, or softball practice, to not go anywhere, until the authorities can get a grip on the investigation, so that a murder is not loose on campus or in town.

Send out a mass e-mail 2 hours after the murders? Not going to cut it. You have to have some other apparatus in this world we live in that is going to do a lot more than if a bunch of college students manage to check their e-mail at 9:00. I know at least at PItt, probably only 40% of the student body would be even up that early, and perhaps no more than 25% of them would have checked their e-mail.

You have to have a more reliable method of communcation. The police get the word out to the resident directors who then inform the RAs. Go building to building telling someone that keep the students in class.

Unfortunately, we live in a very reactive society. Something has to go wrong before things are fixed. 9/11, Katrina, and now this.

Pudge thats my point, in any small town that bulding would be shut down, you are right, but the neighbors buildings wouldn't be, the buildings a half mile away wouldn't be. And again if that happend would you get an email, phone call, town cryer to come and tell you something had happend? Any place I have ever been I know I wouldn't. I went to tech and we had a few instances of violent crime in my 5 years there. At no time then did it bleed over into campus and never did they cancel classes, and there was never anything wrong. The police can not predict the future, and neither can the administrators. There was no indication or evidence that the crime in the dorm was a starting point, they still can't even connect that crime to the gunmen. No note, no big evil speach, no phone call, no list of demands, not even a true eyewitness. You can't lock down all people (26000+faculty and staff) whenever there is a violent crime in America, the country would shut down. There are still cases of domestic violent crime where there were only a few victims where the killers are still at large, should we lock down those areas now? The only information the police had was that the killer left the floor, the footprints show this, however none leave the building, then "eyewitnesses" say someone drove away. Drove away, not walked to his dorm and the post office, not even walked angrily towards an academic building. I challenge anyone to show me a single piece of evidence that would indicate more was to come. The police and university go with what they have and make decisions based on facts, in this case they just weren't justified in locking down a university.

I just think the forseability of a mass murder occuring several hours after an apparant targeted killings is just not in the realm of reality. I would be harsher if the shotter had continued at a fairly steady pace, but I sincerely doubt that anyone could have reasonably forseen it. This is not a case of negligence, it is a case of a directed plan by a unbalanced person - be he a psychopath or sociopath. The Admin gets a pass from me.

W

The irony is the Police DID shut the campus down before....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 24_pf.html

I will let the English majors decide if "Irony" is the right word or if it was just a different set of information. The early one when you read the article states that the campus was shut down Monday when the inmate escaped Sunday. Again the procedures were to start the manhunt, then they had a second victim, this indicates a pattern where the escapee is going to shoot people he encounters, this makes him a continued threat, in particular to campus where he is moving towards and where he is knownand knows the area. Sounds to me like it was handeled well, and everyone including the press who showed up for that story as well, agreed. Last week the police followed their previous procedures the same way. Lockdown the crime scene DONE, find evidence on status of shooter DONE, when the threat is suspected on campus lock it down DONE. It just so happens that this time the shooter waited two and a half hours instead of 12, and the police didn't get a change to their information (i.e. witness's found to be unreliable) until two hours at which point they do send out the emails. Immdiatly followed but the second rampage and the immdiate lock down of all buildings, classes, and campus access roads.

irony

noun
1. witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift [syn: sarcasm]
2. incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs; "the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated"
3. a trope that involves incongruity between what is expected and what occurs


I stated earlier in the week here that it was a VERY hard call placing blame on anyone. Go back and read what i wrote. I said that it was very difficult to stop a madman hellbent on killing people.However, playing Devil's advocate, I think the Police had some sort of blinders on after making the initial assumptions regarding the first shooting.They convinced themselves that they had a domestic violence situation, instead of taking the proper procedure they had previously taken and locked the campus down. That was an unfortunate assumption.

I think more attention has to be paid to important anniversaries
such as Columbine, raising the level of awareness to a higher degree. Had the Campus Police sent the classic "memo" around that due to the upcoming anniversary of Columbine there would be a higher sense of awareness then maybe there would have been a better reaction after the first shooting. But all of this is just speculation after the fact, and that is what happens after events like what happened at VT. I disagree that speculation somehow disrepects the victims of the incident. On the contrary, i think that it serves as a way to learn from the mistakes that were made....

BB sorry if I came across as some form of anger towards you, we agree on 90% of what we are thinking (part of that 10% being "Irony" still ) . The worst possible thing to happen would be that people forgot any of these violent tradgedies. There is blame to pass around to everyone really, from cops, to universities, parents, to the media, to society in general. I can't say I agree with either side of the gun debate cropping up now, and I certainly don't want to censor movies, TV, and video games from violence but it seems like all of that is desensitizing us making it more realistic that these kinds of things can happen. I think it is highly likely that the gun purchase laws will be changed to include a heftier psyche inspection, and maybe even a sort of recurring background check (since apparantly it only takes minutes to do). It is just angering to hear ALL and I mean ALL the talk following the event about who could be blamed, and this isn't really new I guess but why can't it ever be the shooters fault, or an act of god, or simply a thing we don't fully understand (the mind) that fails. It has to be someones fault, the PD, the University, the George Bush, Jim Mora etc. Emotions run hot, hope all hatchets stay buried, until the first game of the college season that is