It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:19 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:16 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2125
Location: Deepinthehearta
Turns out I was right.

The hammer of doom will come down hard. Incognito will never play another down. What Owner will take the baggage that comes with him?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nd-others/

_________________
Fantasy League Champion 2010
Pick Em Co-Champion 2011

We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:20 pm 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26142
Location: North Carolina
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10458 ... cker-rooms

Don't lose crucial parts of 'the code'
Leaders should set right tone for NFL teams to thrive as men, players
Updated: February 15, 2014, 10:52 AM ET
By Mark Schlereth | ESPN
2K
1K
162
EMAIL
PRINT

Breaking Down The Ted Wells' Report

Chris Mortensen reacts to the findings of the Ted Wells' report, which details the Dolphins' harassment situation.
Tags: Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito, Dolphins, Ted Wells, Chris Mortensen
NEXT VIDEO video
No Room For Bullying, Harassment
I've had a lifelong love affair with football. I was fortunate to be able to live out my childhood dreams. To play a game for a living and now cover the game I love and support my family, it's a dream come true. The game has meant a lot to me.

Ted Wells' Report on Dolphins
Dolphins Read the report that resulted from Ted Wells' independent investigation into workplace conduct of the Miami Dolphins. Editor's note: The report contains explicit and graphic language. Report

But for such an amazingly popular sport, there are aspects of it that I think many fans don't fully understand, and the Richie Incognito story has shed a negative light on some of those misunderstood parts of playing football and being on a football team.

Among the many things that I loved about playing football was sitting around the locker room with teammates and poking fun at each other with sophomoric slams, each one more ridiculous than the next.

But let me make this perfectly clear: I despise the stories of bullying that came out of Miami.

It breaks my heart that the good-natured ribbing that is a part of every locker room could get to a point that a young man felt his only option was to walk away from the game that he's worked his entire life to play.

I have great empathy for Jonathan Martin. I don't know all the inner workings of the Miami Dolphins locker room, but I do know the pain of being different, the sadness that accompanies not fitting in and the hopeless feeling of having no one to turn to, because it's part of my story as well.

My parents lovingly passed down the lessons of their lives so that my sister, Jana, and I may also teach our children the foundational principles of a life well lived. There was something else my father passed on, quite unintentionally, I'm sure: learning disabilities. My father is dyslexic, and so am I.

More From ESPN.com
The poor leadership displayed by Jim Turner, as evidenced in the Wells report, likely will cost the Dolphins' offensive line coach his job, writes James Walker. Blog

Dan Le Batard asks: How are Miami players allowing themselves to stand with the banished bully Richie Incognito over the tormented victim Jonathan Martin? Story

The Wells report shows how Richie Incognito so successfully bullied Jonathan Martin that he belittled his own education and upbringing, Tim Keown writes. Story

Someone should have stopped Richie Incognito before he ran a teammate off. That should be the code players live by, Mark Schlereth writes. Story

• Seifert: Inside Slant on locker room
• Walker: Owner: Can't Happen Again
• Walker: Five quick thoughts
• Vote: Report thoughts

It was the first day of seventh grade, and one of my teachers was explaining the course requirements.

"Every day I will randomly select a student to stand in front of the class and read a current event from the newspaper," he said. That's when the panic set in.

I would have struggled reading Dr. Seuss's "Green Eggs and Ham." Read from the paper? I had zero shot. Every day walking into that class was more miserable than the next; the anxiety of knowing my name might be next on the docket made it almost impossible to place one foot in front of the other. As I'd pass through the threshold, I would pray, "Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus, I beg you, please don't let this be the day my name is called. Amen." For several weeks, my prayers were answered, but then came that fateful day.

"Schlereth, it's your turn to read," he said.

"No thank you," I replied.

"Get up and read, now!," he barked.

"Please, please, no," I begged.

"Get up now or fail," he stated with conviction.

I arose, heart leaping from my shirt, cheeks so flushed they would make a rose wilt with jealousy. I walked to the front of the room. I stood for what seemed like an eternity but in reality was less than a minute and painfully tried to sound out words that were way above my pay grade. With each passing second and every stammered-upon syllable, the snickers from the class grew louder, until my teacher had heard enough.

"Sit down! You're stupid!" he proclaimed.

The class was bursting at the seams with laughter and a heartbroken boy slumped in his chair, tears streaming down his cheeks, puddling in pools of embarrassment on the table beneath him.

Have you ever been scared or embarrassed to the point of paralysis? Where do you turn when you feel you have nowhere to turn? In whom do you confide when it seems everyone is against you? What is the "correct" response in those situations? I had nowhere to turn and no fellow students or other teachers to support me or help me. I couldn't even turn to my parents because I felt like I had failed them. I was alone.

In a different setting, but one with many similarities, Jonathan Martin walked out. Looking back, I wish I'd had the courage to do the same. Maybe that would have brought the attention that my situation needed for things to be set straight.

The Code
I've heard a lot of current and former football players evoke "the code" in regard to Martin's departure from his team.

• Handle your business like a man
• Don't air the team's dirty laundry to the public
• Stand up for yourself
• Punch him in the nose
• Don't run out on your teammates

Many have said Martin has broken "the code" and will never be welcomed back in the locker room. What about "the code" that says we love one another? We play hard for one another? We set aside our differences and bond together as one?

What about that fraternity, that code?

[+] EnlargeJoe Gibbs
Ronald C. Modra/Sports Imagery/Getty Images
Former Redskins coach Joe Gibbs set the tone for the team to be good men as well as players.
The code of championship locker rooms, in which men sacrifice for each other, in which they consider others more important than themselves, in which they embrace -- not ostracize -- each other. That's the locker room I grew up in and the code I adhere to, and my football career is filled with examples of reaching out, and looking out, for teammates.

I was drafted in the 10th round, the 263rd pick of the 1989 draft by the Washington Redskins. I was a no-name, oft-injured center/guard from the University of Idaho. My college career was a mess, so riddled with injury that the university had retired me as a junior. "That's enough," they said and threw in the white towel on my childhood dream. After months of pleading (whining), they acquiesced and agreed to allow me to play my senior season. I was completely off the NFL radar.

Luckily for me, I had a teammate who wasn't. Marvin Washington was a 6-foot-6, 270-pound defensive end and was chiseled from granite, and we were brothers. Every few days "Dirty," as he was known to his teammates, would call me to let me know when the next pro team would be at the facility to work him out. My phone rang 15-20 times, and 15-20 times I showed up to Dirty's workouts, introducing myself and asked for an opportunity. Marvin's generosity -- that's how I became a Skin!

Joe Gibbs was the head coach, and he set the culture of our locker room from the very first meeting of the year. As a rookie, I had a vision of what my first NFL meeting would be like. I was expecting fire and brimstone, some real Football 101, but what I got was the truth from a quiet, regal man.

"Welcome to the 1989 season, men," he said. "Today I'd like to give you some priorities for your life ...

1. Your relationship with God.

2. Your relationship with your family and teammates.

3. Being the best football player you can be.

"I guarantee you, if the first two priorities are not in line, you can't be your best on the field," Gibbs said. "Let's make it a great year. Break out with your position coaches."

That was it, and the tone was set.

Self-policing
Professional sports are filled with unwritten rules of behavior, and that is fine, but there are lines that shouldn't get crossed in following those rules. If they do get crossed, well, there should be enough men with character and integrity to stand up and put an end to it.
This is what bothers me the most about the Miami Dolphins. Where were the men of character? Where were the men of integrity who would intercede on behalf of a hurting teammate, a member of the family?

As a rookie, money wasn't extorted from me to pay for the veterans' dinner because the veterans knew I wasn't making much. I was asked on occasion to grab donuts or breakfast sandwiches, but, more often than not, one of the vets would slide some cash in my direction to ease the pain.

[+] EnlargeSchlereth
AP Photo
As a rookie on the Redskins, if Mark Schlereth bought the veterans dinner, one of them would slip him some money.
The "Hogs" was the nickname of the legendary offensive line in Washington. The mainstays were Jeff Bostic, Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby and Don Warren. After practice, the Hogs wandered off to a toolshed in the corner of the property to play cards, tell stories and have a few beers. The gathering in the shed was known as "The 5 O'clock Club," and there was always an open invitation for me. But I chose not to attend, not because I was opposed, but because I wanted to go home, play with the kids and have dinner as a family. Even though I didn't attend the 5 O'clock Club, I was still a member of the Hogs. I was a part of the group, never ostracized for not showing up, always loved!

Singing your school's fight song at lunch or dinner during training camp is standard operating procedure. Call it hazing, if you wish, but it's more a harmless rite of passage. If your singing stinks, you get booed off center stage. Sing well and you become a rock star replete with a chorus of off-key background vocalists made up of vets from your alma mater. As a rookie, I was told by the Boss Hog himself, Grimm, I wasn't allowed to sing for anyone but him. So when respected 10-year vet and special-teams captain Monte Coleman asked me to sing at dinner and Russ wasn't present, I explained what I had been told. Monte took a cursory glance around the cafeteria, didn't see Russ and said, "OK, sit down." That was it! I wasn't chastised, cussed at or taped to the goalposts. I was just allowed to finish my dinner.

In my seventh season, I found myself on a bus in Japan as a member of the Denver Broncos. It was my first season in Denver and our first road trip of the preseason. As we sat in traffic, there was the usual joking and poking fun that accompanies those moments.

In the seats behind me sat two defensive players, and they were flipping some grief to a young player, typical stuff. At some point, the good-natured, innocuous ribbing became personal and out of bounds, so I turned and said "Enough," they responded with a few choice words for me and I made it clear in no uncertain terms that they crossed a line and I wasn't putting up with it. They mumbled a few protests under their breaths, but it was over and the bus rolled slowly to its destination, again under the din of good-natured fun that accompanies grown men who play a childhood game for a living. A few minutes later, I glanced back at the young player I had stood up for -- no words were exchanged, just a tacit nod of the head, as if to say, "Thanks. I appreciate the help." I replied in kind, and it's was never brought up again.

Outside The Lines

"Outside The Lines" analyzes Ted Wells' report on Richie Incognito, Jonathan Martin and the Dolphins.

More Podcasts »
So there is one story, among many I have, of some self-policing, some enforcing of a code that builds teams rather than tearing them apart. Those guys didn't freak out at my intervention or suggestion that they lay off. I wasn't attacking their manhood. I was reminding them of the line you don't cross. They got a little carried away, but they knew I was right. We moved on with no trouble. Nothing lingered or simmered because it was addressed on the spot. I'm no hero and it probably would have resolved itself, but I was taught to stand up for my team. I was taught "the code" -- the championship code.

But, in light of the Incognito/Martin story, people would have you believe that you have to be some raving lunatic to play in the NFL, wound so tightly that the slightest spark will insight an insatiable inferno. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I'm 48 years old now and about the least confrontational person you'll ever meet. My fists have never found purchase on the flesh of another man's face. I've never been in a fight. If someone falls short of their obligation to our family, I have my wife call to rectify the situation because it makes me so uncomfortable. Yet I succeeded for many years in the trenches of the NFL, in which there are several confrontations on every play. It can be done -- through focus, effort and discipline, not through unbridled rage and hair-trigger emotional outbursts.

Off the field, I coached my son's baseball teams, my daughter's soccer teams and went to every dance recital. I know these actions are a better representation of the typical NFL journey and life than the stories out of Miami.

I'm left with this conclusion about the Dolphins organization from the coaching staff on down:

They were either complicit, incompetent or, worse, both.

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:39 pm 
Offline
Draught Guru
Draught Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am
Posts: 5122
:whistle:

Earlier this year, Incognito even completed the Deepak Chopra 21-Day Meditation Challenge, endorsed by Oprah Winfrey's Lifeclass. He uses another form of meditation called "visualization" to prepare himself for moments that might require patience or willpower. He says he benefited from Ricky Williams' recommendations, as well as many other mind-easing practices. Ultimately, Incognito says, he is motivated to find the answers, whatever they might be.

:roll:

http://www.nfl.com/incognito

_________________
"what if there were no hypothetical situations?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:45 am 
Offline
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:12 pm
Posts: 6305
Location: Planet Claire
We will allow someone who covered up a murder not only to continue to play but likely be put in Canton as long as he is good on the field and in the locker room. What would Dr. Phil say?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:41 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26142
Location: North Carolina
backnblack wrote:
We will allow someone who covered up a murder not only to continue to play but likely be put in Canton as long as he is good on the field and in the locker room. What would Dr. Phil say?

Image

Image

Image

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:30 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:41 pm
Posts: 2465
Location: Albany NY
What Vick did is also 1000 times worse than what Incognito did. He's a good passionate player, I'd take him on my team.

_________________
When life gives you lemons, find some salt and tequila then invite me!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:09 pm 
Offline
Draught Guru
Draught Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am
Posts: 5122
DaveWaz wrote:
What Vick did is also 1000 times worse than what Incognito did. He's a good passionate player, I'd take him on my team.



yeah, but 'Secret d***head' isn't black, and he bullied a black guy, and he is white. Killing dogs pales in comparison in todays P.C. mindset..See:Paula Deen. A mid level WR for the Eagles says a drunken racial slur, and he is the devils spawn. Meanwhile other guys beat thier wives, get in barfights, drag thier chicks out of elevators, and its business as usual. And Im not talking specifically about one particular race, there are sh*thead white guys who do despicable things as well(see Big Ben) . It just depends on your talent level, or how bad your team is hurting.. Were just in one of those wierd P.C. 'cycles' about bullying. :roll: Maybe next season, Roddy will call someone a 'faggot' on the field, and if the 'outrage du jour' is gay-bashing, the same will happen to him.

However, I would not count him out just yet. He is clearly a better player them Martin. Maybe he goes to 'anger management rehab', explains why he is so full of rage because his mommy did not love him enough, does Oprah's fainting couch, and has an NFL 60 spotlight that shows just how much he has 'matured', how he has found peace at last with the baby Jeebus, and how he just wants to help contribute while he still can end his career with some dignity. This will also come with a healthy 'donation' to a 'charity', along with a healthy stipend to a new 'anti-bullying foundation' that will be overseen by Emmanuel Lewis.

For Martin, Im not so sure. He wasnt that good to begin with, and even though the Colts would 'accept him', I bet he cashes in on a huge lawsuit and goes away quietly. :whistle:

_________________
"what if there were no hypothetical situations?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:00 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26142
Location: North Carolina
You may be right fun gus, but I just don't see it. We said the same things about Vick when he got out of prison.

All it takes is 1 team like Vick with Andy Reid/Eagles. But in the case of Vick he was a highly talented player at the most important position in the league. It was inevitable that someone would take that on, just a matter of when.

But Incognito is a guard. As I explained back in December, teams just don't invest much into guards to merit the "baggage." You can simply get a younger 3rd-7th round pick that can do what Incognito did.

If Incognito was 28 he'd have a good chance. But he'll be 31 when the season starts and typically any production you get from OL between 32-35 can be considered gravy.

I just don't see anyone taking that on this year, unless they are just crushed by injury and it's with a coaching staff he already knows (Sparano in Oakland?), is a team just going to take that on this year. And then next year he'll be a year older and forgotten.

This is not the last we've heard of Incognito though. His history clearly shows mental/emotional problems/instability. He'll make headlines again at some point, I just hope it's not for tragic reasons.

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:38 am 
Offline
Draught Guru
Draught Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am
Posts: 5122
Pudge wrote:
You may be right fun gus, but I just don't see it. We said the same things about Vick when he got out of prison.

All it takes is 1 team like Vick with Andy Reid/Eagles. But in the case of Vick he was a highly talented player at the most important position in the league. It was inevitable that someone would take that on, just a matter of when.

But Incognito is a guard. As I explained back in December, teams just don't invest much into guards to merit the "baggage." You can simply get a younger 3rd-7th round pick that can do what Incognito did.

If Incognito was 28 he'd have a good chance. But he'll be 31 when the season starts and typically any production you get from OL between 32-35 can be considered gravy.

I just don't see anyone taking that on this year, unless they are just crushed by injury and it's with a coaching staff he already knows (Sparano in Oakland?), is a team just going to take that on this year. And then next year he'll be a year older and forgotten.

This is not the last we've heard of Incognito though. His history clearly shows mental/emotional problems/instability. He'll make headlines again at some point, I just hope it's not for tragic reasons.



fair points. But, looking at it from that perspective, what you are essentially saying is if he was younger/better then the result of his actions would be mitigated. I thought the heinous nature of Vick's crimes would make him unavailable, and I was wrong. Then you got Big Slay Ray. In essence, this P.C. posturing by the NFL is disengenous as hell. Goodell may say 'Incognito was wrong, and should not play' but what he really means is 'he is dispensable due to his age, so lets make him a scapegoat'.

So, forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of all this, and despite what the good councellor prognosticated, I aint buying that this league has some sort of 'moral code'. In fact, far from it :ninja:

_________________
"what if there were no hypothetical situations?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:24 pm 
Offline
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:12 pm
Posts: 6305
Location: Planet Claire
Pudge wrote:
backnblack wrote:
We will allow someone who covered up a murder not only to continue to play but likely be put in Canton as long as he is good on the field and in the locker room. What would Dr. Phil say?

Image

Image

Image

That isn't the same slope, IMO, but another metaphorical mountain. Criminality and boorishness are a little dif in my view.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:57 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26142
Location: North Carolina
backnblack wrote:
That isn't the same slope, IMO, but another metaphorical mountain. Criminality and boorishness are a little dif in my view.

Apparently I misunderstood your previous post, which seemed to be implying that because of alleged (but who are we kidding here?) criminal behavior on the part of Ray Lewis, that his ability to get into the Hall of Fame should at least be questioned…correct? Thus, I'm wondering if alleged criminal behavior by Lawrence Taylor and O.J. Simpson should subsequently cost them their spots in Canton right? Remember LT is now considered a sex offender.

fun gus wrote:
So, forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of all this, and despite what the good councellor prognosticated, I aint buying that this league has some sort of 'moral code'. In fact, far from it :ninja:

Hypocrisy on the part of the National Football League? :shock:

After all, let's make players using the n-word on the field a football-related penalty, but let's say nothing about the use of a slanderous word by one of our football teams as their nickname.

:beef:

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:37 am 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 pm
Posts: 4396
It is my opinion that Washington should change their name to Jackasses. I think it would identify with the people who work in Washington a bit better. It's also less offensive than their current team nickname, which I will not repeat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:17 pm 
Offline
All-Pro
All-Pro
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:46 am
Posts: 519
Location: Vacaville, CA
I don't agree, and I think Tagliabu [edit: wow. discount everything I say =)] has this one correct, FG. If you want to criticize anyone, it's the court of public opinion in America: It's not like Eagles games have been bereft of fans for the last few years. America votes with its dollar, and Mike Vick is acceptable for people to spend money on.

Vick didn't play for two years; it's not like Goddell [closer] got him sprung early to keep fans in the stands. And yet he still go to keep his entire signing bonus from the courts.

I don't think that you can argue that the penalties to NO, Gregg Williams, Brandon Browner (who exactly did he hurt?), or the Dallas and Washington salary caps was too lenient.

I don't think you can say that he's being overly punished because of race because of Roethlesburger (ohtfysi): he's morally repugnant and wasn't out quite long enough. Insert Donte Stallworth here as well. Goodell [got it!] isn't the bell of moral clarity, but he's not striking me at all as handling this case incorrectly.

In fact, I don't think we're talking about Goodell. I think we're talking about the willingness of the other 31 teams to have the media looking for this in their locker room. Who wants that scrutiny? I'd be like having Tim Tebo . . . oh. Went there.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The dolphins were a mess
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:23 pm 
Offline
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:12 pm
Posts: 6305
Location: Planet Claire
Pudge wrote:
backnblack wrote:
That isn't the same slope, IMO, but another metaphorical mountain. Criminality and boorishness are a little dif in my view.

Apparently I misunderstood your previous post, which seemed to be implying that because of alleged (but who are we kidding here?) criminal behavior on the part of Ray Lewis, that his ability to get into the Hall of Fame should at least be questioned…correct? Thus, I'm wondering if alleged criminal behavior by Lawrence Taylor and O.J. Simpson should subsequently cost them their spots in Canton right? Remember LT is now considered a sex offender.

fun gus wrote:
So, forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of all this, and despite what the good councellor prognosticated, I aint buying that this league has some sort of 'moral code'. In fact, far from it :ninja:

Hypocrisy on the part of the National Football League? :shock:

After all, let's make players using the n-word on the field a football-related penalty, but let's say nothing about the use of a slanderous word by one of our football teams as their nickname.

:beef:

It won't be questioned. And you cannot unring a bell about LT or OJ...nor should you. We are far more interested in words than deeds, unfortunately. How about we change name of Skins to the Native Americans and the Patriots to the Enslavers or Genociders? And plenty of pirates had use of both of their eyes. What's up with that stereotype?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: