I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

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RobertAP
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby RobertAP » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:15 pm

There were other times where Ryan tried to run but got hammered. I'm pretty sure that he was told, "never do that again."

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Cyril » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:29 pm

Imagine Ryan on a team where the philosophy wasn't to have him sit back and manage for 3 quarters, and instead, put the players around him to allow him to attack opposing defenses with short, medium, and long passes for four quarters. Matt has proven that he can make all of those throws. He has proven that he can beat the blitz. He has proven that he can make pre-snap reads and adjustments. He has proven that he's a tough SoB and will take a hit and make the throw.


If Ryan could carry a team he would have this year.... Carry means just that!! You do it on your own.

Ryan is a great game manager for 3 quarters while he goes 3 and out for the first 10 minutes of the third quarter. Yes Ryan does have a quick release on short throws where he knows where people will be.(Its his favorite plays) It takes him a lot longer to find an open receiver and then find the release.....

Yes Ryan is the best Qb we ever had; but he's dropping down in overall Qbs because some are passing him by with their running and arms. The better the team the better he plays!!
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby RobertAP » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:35 pm

Do you honestly believe that Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers would have made this a winning team this year? You really think that they could have found a way to win 6 more games this year on this team? I don't think so.

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Pudge » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:00 pm

Cyril wrote:If Ryan could carry a team he would have this year.... Carry means just that!! You do it on your own.
RobertAP wrote:Do you honestly believe that Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers would have made this a winning team this year? You really think that they could have found a way to win 6 more games this year on this team? I don't think so.

You don't want to go down that road Robert. You can't win this argument with someone that thinks top-level QB play is independent of coaching. This is no different than the Vick debates of many years ago.
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby RobertAP » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:16 am

I'll make it simple Pudge... I challenge you guys to show me a modern era elite QB who, "carried," his team to a winning record with a bottom five run offense, and a bottom 6 defense. Elite QBs cannot overcome multiple areas of the team being bottom scrapers. They can overcome one major failing, but not major failings in the run game, in pass protection, and in defense. If you guys can show me an example of one of your, "elite QB's," overcoming such a situation, and leading his team to a winning record, I'll back off of my argument a bit. I'm not going to back off completely because I believe that Ryan is much better than some of you give him credit for.

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Cyril » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:13 am

I put P. Manning by himself....... He is the coach. I can't say how much better he'd do, but Ryan is not in his league. Brady is next but again its hard to say how much better one is than another.

You can gather stats till your blue; but Manning can change a whole offense. He's gotten better with less more than anyone.

Pudge has never known anything about coaching. He thought we had 5 years of good coaching till he changed his mind!! Not playing the game hurts him in a number of areas he watches film
of the NFL-----not as powerful of a good coach breaking down your own games in all areas.

Football will always be a game of fundamentals.!! Some coaches do that better than others; but none do it well without players to carry out those fundamentals.

Ryan is very good. He's just not a top 3 quarterback, a top 3 Qb motivates his team on the field and off. If Ryan is the best Qb this franchise has ever had; then you still have hopes he will get better. HE needs to play better for 4 quarters. He's very good!! Just not one of the best!!
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby RobertAP » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:10 am

I made it simple. Go find me a QB who has carried his team to a winning record with a bottom five run game, and a bottom six defense. You're saying that Ryan is a game manager because he can't do that. Show me a QB that has done that.

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby backnblack » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:07 pm

We,, since arguing just to argue is kind of what we do, I might suggest that a top QB and his play make it hard for a team to have a bad run game and D. This guy has a tendency to effect virtually every aspect of the team. And, Pudge is right, players do not operate independent of coaching (D. Brees 2012).

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Cyril » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:51 pm

Where's the big difference is offense from 2012-2013.... Breeze through 5 more Tds in 2012 and 7 more interceptions. I think they were in the same formation, that's a very small difference. Yardages were very close too. Sure bad coaches can line up everyone up in places to fail. Good Qbs make all Coaches look good. Some coaches can move on and win, and so can some Qbs....

Its hard to hold a good qb back!!
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Pudge » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:36 pm

Cyril wrote:Where's the big difference is offense from 2012-2013.... Breeze through 5 more Tds in 2012 and 7 more interceptions. I think they were in the same formation, that's a very small difference. Yardages were very close too. Sure bad coaches can line up everyone up in places to fail. Good Qbs make all Coaches look good. Some coaches can move on and win, and so can some Qbs....

Its hard to hold a good qb back!!

Funny you could basically insert Matt Ryan instead of "Breeze" in that statement, and it would be the same…

Where's the big difference is [sic] offense from 2012-2013…Matty through [sic] 6 more TDs in 2013 and 3 less interceptions. I think they were in the same formation, that's a very small difference.Yardages were very close too.

The biggest reason why stats supposedly lie is people do what you just did Cyril and look at raw numbers and assume things.

Brees is the poster child for why coaching matters. Look at him in San Diego vs. New Orleans with Sean Payton vs. New Orleans without Sean Payton. Was Brees a good QB without Payton? Yes. But with Peyton he was an exceptional QB at times (his 2009 and 2011 seasons were arguably 2 of the 20 best seasons a QB has had ever). And when you consider degree of difficulty (evidence from the ridiculous number of attempts), those were examples of a QB "carrying" a team. Brees 2004 was an excellent season as well in SD, but that was a Charger team that ran the ball 53% of the time and thrived thanks in large part to the breakout year of Antonio Gates.

Obviously the problems of the Saints in 2012 went beyond just Drew Brees. But basically when a QB goes from all-time great which Brees was in 2011 to "mundane" Matt Ryan levels in 2012, your team is going to take a hit. This past year in 2013, Brees production rose back up to somewhere in between. That makes a significant difference. It's really no different than a team that goes from a very bad QB to a slightly above average QB.

But the point is that you cannot have those types of seasons without coaching coming into the mix. Good players will generally be good regardless of the coaching of the team, but good players cannot be great without a significant boost from coaching.
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby backnblack » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:08 am

Pudge wrote:
Cyril wrote:Where's the big difference is offense from 2012-2013.... Breeze through 5 more Tds in 2012 and 7 more interceptions. I think they were in the same formation, that's a very small difference. Yardages were very close too. Sure bad coaches can line up everyone up in places to fail. Good Qbs make all Coaches look good. Some coaches can move on and win, and so can some Qbs....

Its hard to hold a good qb back!!

Funny you could basically insert Matt Ryan instead of "Breeze" in that statement, and it would be the same…

Where's the big difference is [sic] offense from 2012-2013…Matty through [sic] 6 more TDs in 2013 and 3 less interceptions. I think they were in the same formation, that's a very small difference.Yardages were very close too.

The biggest reason why stats supposedly lie is people do what you just did Cyril and look at raw numbers and assume things.

Brees is the poster child for why coaching matters. Look at him in San Diego vs. New Orleans with Sean Payton vs. New Orleans without Sean Payton. Was Brees a good QB without Payton? Yes. But with Peyton he was an exceptional QB at times (his 2009 and 2011 seasons were arguably 2 of the 20 best seasons a QB has had ever). And when you consider degree of difficulty (evidence from the ridiculous number of attempts), those were examples of a QB "carrying" a team. Brees 2004 was an excellent season as well in SD, but that was a Charger team that ran the ball 53% of the time and thrived thanks in large part to the breakout year of Antonio Gates.

Obviously the problems of the Saints in 2012 went beyond just Drew Brees. But basically when a QB goes from all-time great which Brees was in 2011 to "mundane" Matt Ryan levels in 2012, your team is going to take a hit. This past year in 2013, Brees production rose back up to somewhere in between. That makes a significant difference. It's really no different than a team that goes from a very bad QB to a slightly above average QB.

But the point is that you cannot have those types of seasons without coaching coming into the mix. Good players will generally be good regardless of the coaching of the team, but good players cannot be great without a significant boost from coaching.

Some reason you feel compelled to mock grammar, P?

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Pudge » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:16 am

backnblack wrote:Some reason you feel compelled to mock grammar, P?

I'm going through a condescending phase. Happens every year for about a month after the season and then in June usually a month after the draft.
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Cyril » Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:04 am

Yea well Smith got better and more competitive as White did; AND THREW HIM LONG TDs and
we won more as some linemen got slightly more stable.
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Pudge » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:34 am

Cyril wrote:Yea well Smith got better and more competitive as White did; AND THREW HIM LONG TDs

Isn't' that exactly what I've been saying this whole time as the main reason why this team was competitive or not so during this year?

Cyril wrote:we won more as some linemen got slightly more stable.

Not sure, I buy that. Our RG situation got progressively worse as the season wore on. Regardless of what people may think, Reynolds was better in September than any other RG we fielded the rest of the year. Schraeder was about even with Trueblood, although his lapses were all game-changers. Holmes played his best football during that middle stretch when the team wasn't competitive, and struggled a lot more over the final month. Blalock's play also went downhill during that span as well, as his pass protection broke down a lot more in December. The only position that the team was better at in December than it was in September-Novemeber was center with Hawley. So we don't improve at 4 of the 5 positions, and suddenly our offense is playing it's best football down the stretch? Hmmm, that's intriguing...

And we had more breakdowns on the OL in the games we won at the end than in most of the games we lost where we weren't competitive.

But by all means, keep making up evidence to fit your argument rather than looking at the evidence that is staring you in the face... :roll:
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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby backnblack » Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:36 pm

Pudge wrote:
backnblack wrote:Some reason you feel compelled to mock grammar, P?

I'm going through a condescending phase. Happens every year for about a month after the season and then in June usually a month after the draft.

Wish I was young enough to be that smart.

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Re: I'm going back to Matt Ryan = Game Manager

Postby Cyril » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:44 pm

PUDGE WROTE:
Isn't' that exactly what I've been saying this whole time as the main reason why this team was competitive or not so during this year?


What the same thing this whole time?? You've made up more crap in one year than in the last 15.....Try to do better next year!! Coach Smith will be back, talk about how lousy he'll do next year when you know what players he has!! Last year is over for the Falcons!!
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