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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:25 pm 
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It's been said it starts with the OL. No, it starts with coaching. That's a very basic fact. OL can't execute on the plays unless they are called by coaches. The Falcons problems aren't just about their coaching. THey have problems across their roster. But history tells that us that with inferior coaching and inferior QB play, those are things that are next to impossible to overcome. And more often than not, those two things are immeasurably linked.

I'm not saying that the rest of the Falcons problems go away if they upgrade/change their coaching. Their coaching staff requires that they are better at something than you are in order to win. Last year, it was their weapons at WR/TE that made them special. This year, injuries obviously took that away. The issue is that the Falcons had 1 possible asset that would allow them to still be better at something than their opponents, and that was their QB. And IMO, they made little to no effort to try and exploit that asset. That to me is the definition of bad coaching. It's no

You may not recall, but there were multiple posts here where I was saying it was silly to fire Smith back in September/October:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18677&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18728&start=0

But at that point, it was unfathomable to me that this team would be as poorly coached as it was going to be over the next 2-3 months. And basically the argument against that is that you either believe this team wasn't poorly coached over that span, or that you believe that the poor coaching gets somewhat a pass because the OL is so bad.

And if you believe the latter, then that tells me that you pay little to no attention to the other 31 teams that happen to play professional football, because you would know that simply isn't true.

That's an opinion, and obviously people will disagree with that opinion. But this current argument largely arose weeks ago when I said that OL play is overrated. And at least as far as some people are concerned on this message board, I believe it is. It starts with coaching, and QB play, and defense. And if you think OL is equal or more important than those things, then IMO you are by definition overrating the value of OL play. This team's decision to dump John Abraham and replace him with Osi Umenyiora had much more impact on this season than anything they did on their OL. IMO, this team's decision to sign Brian Robiskie rather than making a better move had more impact on this dump of a year than anything they did on their OL. If you disagree, then IMO you are overrating OL play.

You can look around the league and see that 2-3 bad OL rarely make/break a team's season as much as people on this forum seem to believe that 2-3 bad OL moves made/broke this Falcon team's season. Everybody seems to agree that the Falcons OL hasn't been very good for a number of years. And everybody seems to agree that the Falcons compensated for that by having their QBs & WRs play really well. That alone should tell you how important OL play is, and thus if the Falcons 2013 season tanked, it should have less to do with the OL play and more to do with the play of the QBs & WRs. IMHO, that should be a very obvious point, yet we're still talking about how the OL doomed the Falcons in 2013...

:so:

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:28 pm 
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I think you've made your point, Pudge. Whenever anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of the Falcons 2013 is asked one word to say what went wrong that word will be "Robiskie." It's irrefutable!

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:48 am 
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backnblack wrote:
I think you've made your point, Pudge. Whenever anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of the Falcons 2013 is asked one word to say what went wrong that word will be "Robiskie." It's irrefutable!

That's all I wanted to hear. :up:

"ROOOOOBIIIIISKIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:12 pm 
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But this current argument largely arose weeks ago when I said that OL play is overrated. And at least as far as some people are concerned on this message board, I believe it is.


You've been shown to be so wrong!! Without better players how do coaches stop 9 sacks??

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Absolutely pathetic display by the OL today....and it end it with a whimper like that. Damn...

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
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But this current argument largely arose weeks ago when I said that OL play is overrated. And at least as far as some people are concerned on this message board, I believe it is.


You've been shown to be so wrong!! Without better players how do coaches stop 9 sacks??

You don't, but the Falcons still had a chance to win today despite the abysmal performance of the OL. According to you guys, there's simply no chance a team could be competitive with an OL as bad as ours. Today proved you wrong.

I don't deny that the OL cost us the game. But even despite the worst OL performance of the Falcons in 12 seasons, if a handful of plays that don't involve the OL go another way, the Falcons win. Missed it by that much.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Damn, Pudge, you've kinda lost it. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:14 pm 
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It just proves he'll never admit when he's wrong.....I won't forget it, and when he's terribly wrong
I WON'T WASTE MONTHS of lecturing him. His arguments are just stupid after watching today's game. Anyone can argue when these problems started; but it can't be argued the line is so bad we can't run it or pass it deep. 9 Sacks and blaming the coaches is about like blaming Blank;
we spent our money on a Qb, so Ryan can enjoy what its like not to have a line!!

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:25 am 
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Not really true, Cyril. He has changed his narrative during the middle of the season and put it on the coaching staff after being supportive of them for the most part and admitted that he was "wrong" about them. It seems that some of this hyperbolic rhetoric and digging in of heels is just to get a little banter going on here as much as anything. Lots of it is just another way of seeing the same thing and describing it differently, i.e., the staff does not draw up deep routes and that's the problem is not very different than the line cannot hold off the rush long enough for deep routes to be completed. It's like saying, "You call her a slut but I say she's a tramp!"

If you can watch that game today and not understand that the single most glaring problem on O team is the OL then we will just have to agree to disagree...and it has nothing to do with waiver wire WRs or Xs and Os. It has to do with guys just getting consistently physically beat. Our in game OL rotation is more than our DL. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:55 am 
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Pudge will admit being wrong, I remember arguing with him (and allot of you) about Grimes being good years ago, pre Dunta signing... He came around, once he watches the tape again in the off season he will again. By the way he's not all together wrong, the coaching of the offensive line is high school level at best, staffing wise firing our O-line coach, our training staff, and our strength coach all need to happen asap, and we need to spend a few bucks getting top guys to replace them. Then we can work on the talent on our lines in FA and in the draft.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:59 am 
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I just checked again, because I thought I might have missed something. The Falcons only lost by ONE point. Maybe if Douglas doesn't run the wrong route there is no pick 6. Maybe if Roddy catches a couple of the balls he dropped we get first downs. Of course the OL sucked, but other players came up short as well.


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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:20 am 
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Spanky Ham wrote:
I just checked again, because I thought I might have missed something. The Falcons only lost by ONE point. Maybe if Douglas doesn't run the wrong route there is no pick 6. Maybe if Roddy catches a couple of the balls he dropped we get first downs. Of course the OL sucked, but other players came up short as well.

True. Aside from a three or four week stretch the team has played decently for the most part. As the cliche goes, good teams find a way to win and bad teams find a way to lose. If that snap/fumble isn't a bad team finding a way to lose then I don't know what is. The problem presently is that our margin for error is so paper thin. While CAR can overcome a couple of picks we cannot.

Smitty does continue to do some maddeningly silly stuff such as that challenge flag in the first qtr. Didn't hurt us but a tertiary glance told one that wasn't going to be over turned. Nevertheless, I am very impressed with how the guys have kept playing for him. It speaks to their character. I've seen plenty of Falcon teams quit over the years. I think a few additions and subtractions and some guys getting healthy and we will be Ok next year. TD needs to get a hot hand with the draft.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:50 am 
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I have to share... There's about a minute left in the game, Ryan's driving us down the field. (ball is around our 40) I say, "God bless America, someone tell Ryan and Roddy to get with the program and lose this game. Harry's running the wrong routes, the OL is turning the DL lose, what more needs to happen to get Ryan a clue?"

Suddenly, the center snaps the ball while Ryan is trying to make a pre-snap adjustment and we lose like 15 yards. Ryan tries to hurry the team to the line to snap the ball, and we get flagged for an illegal shift and lose just about all of our remaining time.

My dad and I look at each other and burst out laughing.


Matty Ice, frozen by his own team.


I really hope you guys realize that he is the best QB that we've ever had on this team, and that he is one of the best in the NFL. If he had the kind of protection that the other, "elite QB's," had, I'm pretty confident that you would consider him elite as well. Even with this joke of an offense, he put up solid numbers this year.


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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:47 pm 
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I consistently admit when I'm wrong, but this is not one of those times, because I'm not wrong. You now have as many games that the Falcons lost due to poor OL play as games they won due to being aggressive offensively: 1.

Is the OL the most glaring weakness on the offense? Yes, it has been for three years. Is the OL going to be a priority to upgrade this offseason? Yes, because the Falcons are reasonably competent to good at the most of the other 5 positions. And outside signing a midlevel TE and drafting a backup WR in the 4th round or a RB in the 4th round, and/or signing a veteran backup QB, there really isn't any glaring issues the Falcons have on the rest of their offense.

But again, I'm going to disagree with the notion that the Falcons can't do something (i.e. throw downfield more) because they have a bad OL. It's just not true. Anybody that pays attention to professional football sees mountains of evidence to the contrary. Again, the Falcons won't throw downfield because they rarely ever ask their offense to do so, which is why they have the league's least explosive offense. There's nothing stopping the Falcons from taking 2 or 3 more deep shots per game (which IMO would make a significant difference) besides their play-calling i.e. their coaches.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:00 pm 
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:lol: Pudge. This debate is kind of getting silly with the whole I'm right and you're wrong debate. The fact of the matter is, O-line is terrible. We don't need fancy stats or Pro-Football references website to tell us otherwise. The eye test doesn't lie.


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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:11 pm 
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44 Sacks for the season is an incredible number for a team that doesn't throw long..... Almost like back to 1975.

BnB WE'VE BEEN ON THE SAME PAGE WITH THIS SINCE IT WAS OBVIOUS. I misspoke
Quote:
but it can't be argued the line is so bad we can't run it or pass it deep


It not only can be argued its so true why even discuss it. Pudge has gone from our O-line not being bad; to its not so bad that we can win one game??

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:19 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
The eye test doesn't lie
The eye test lies all the time, especially when you're looking just at the game on Sunday, when you have a lot of emotion that is blurring your perception. If/when you go back and re-watch the game, whether that is online, DVR, or VHS, sans that emotion, I guarantee you will see more, and often times it will change what you perceived upon initial viewing.

Yesterday's game was 1 game, and a punctuation mark on the season. People have a tendency to focus mainly on the final game of the season (particularly when it comes to playoff teams) as the summary of the season, when in fact the summary of the season involves 15 other games.

We perceived that our OL wasn't "that bad" a year ago because we won games. I did the same thing, esp. since they played well in the playoffs vs. SEA & SF. Then in the spring I went back and re-read all my game reviews from earlier in the year, and saw that the OL was just as "terrible" then as it was now. Yet the Falcons still fielded a competitive team. And we all know the reasons why that was (better production from passing game and better defensive play). "Bad" OL play has been a constant with this team for 3 years. If you disagree, then clearly your eye test is lying to you.

Yet, for 2 of those 3 years this football team was good, and for 1 it was bad. But the constant variable didn't change, other variables change. So again, if you're arguing why the Falcons 2013 season was doomed, maybe you should look at the other variables that actually changed as opposed to focusingly solely on the thing that didn't change.

That's what we call logic.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:11 pm 
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I feel silly being involved in this stuff at this point but it should be noted that last year's line is not this year's line and, furthermore, your "logic" that we don't throw more deep balls--esp sans JJ--is because the coaching staff doesn't want to defies not only logic but common sense. Is Smith, by nature, conservative and possibly over conservative? I'll grant you that but it's ying and yang. If he were conservative uber alles we would not be passing more than any team in the league. As a matter of fact, some conservatism would be welcome in this regard to me. Rivera strikes me as a conservative coach. He has a QB who was protected with a cannon arm but I don't recall too many deep balls from them yesterday. Have anything to do with Smith out? Doe sit underline your point that sometimes coaches actually don't want to throw deep? Not really. You can look at the All-22 and say, "I didn't see any deep routes, therefore, the staff doesn't want to throw deep." The O takes what the D gives and--in our case--that was very little time in the pocket and very little room on the ground. Not a single 100 yard game all season? Are you kidding me? But, no, OL not the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:47 pm 
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A. We throw the ball so much because we're consistently behind and the running game stinks. If you can throw and have a 60% chance of getting 8 yards, and you run and you have a 60% chance of getting 2 yards (and that's not a willy nilly breakdown, it really is like that), then of course you're going to choose to throw. If you're operating on the assumption that conservative play calls = run and aggressive play calls = pass, then you're essentially reading at an elementary school level, because that is a way more of an oversimplification.

Smith's (or rather this offense's) conservative nature is based around the reliance on high-percentage throws (or better put, low risk throws) that make it easier for even mediocre defenses to defend us, let alone good ones which could stop us in their sleep, thus making our games less about scheming, and more about execution, and given our subpar talent, that really puts us behind the 8 ball.

B. Carolina took 6 deep shots in the first 20 minutes of the game. The Falcons took 2. It's worth noting that throughout the majority of this season, the Falcons number has been zero. And if I go back and watch the tape and see 2-3 more where the design of the play was to go down the field, then IMO that's a positive step even if the result was negative (i.e. more sacks).

Typically the only deep shots the Falcons have been taking this year in most games is in the 2nd half when they are already behind by 1-2 scores and thus have to throw down the field, because there is a greater need to score quickly because they are behind.

And people should note there is a difference between a team that has 2 designed deep shots and executes on 1 of them, and a team that has 5 designed deep shots and executes on 1 of them. They may both read as 35-yard plays on the stat sheet, but they aren't coming from the same offense, and thusly defenses aren't going to play them the same way.

I understand the concept that you take what is given. Who gets the ball is determined by coverage and pre snap reads. I get that. But there are opportunities for an offense to dictate coverage by being aggressive and attacking their opponents.

I've never read Art of War, but I'm familiar with some of the basic concepts. You know how like if two opposing armies are squaring off, one on offense and the other defensive. If you can make the defending army defend 5 strongpoints, you have the potential to spread them thin, and thus make it easier to overrun one of those points. However, if your tactics make it so that the defending force only has to defend 2 strongpoints and only pay lip service to defending the other 3 (or not at all), then it's going to be harder for you to overrun your opponent.

This is a concept that I relatively recently was introduced to, by other members of this forum (takeitdown stands out), back in 2010-11 when we were discussing why Mularkey sucked. This is the same basic principle to why people constantly complained about Greg Knapp and his lack of deep passing. And you saw the same thing this year if you were paying attention with Koetter.

Most fans seem to think that the great QBs like Manning, Brady, and Brees just coalesced out of the aether, when in fact the offenses that they run are often predicated on this basic concept: dictating to the defense how they will defend them, as opposed to the opposite way. You can't do it every snap, but there are several moments throughout each game when you are able to do so, and if you happen to have a coach/team/QB that can take advantage of those moments, you're going to often win the game.

The Falcons offense has largely not been this offense under Matt Ryan. There were points last year where they were this type of team, however most of them were very measured times, when they would go max protect (with 7-8 blockers) and send Julio & Roddy deep and ask them to win 1 on 1. The Falcons basically eliminated this from their playbook, although the deep shot to Roddy vs. SF was one of the rare times when this has happened this year.

And while I'm not saying that we could have achieved this as much as Brees/Brady, etc. do, we could certainly do it more than we did.

However the Falcons operated on the very simple, basic "frontal assault" tactic (i.e. conservative), an effective tactic if you have the superior force (i.e. talent), but when you don't have that as we did in 2013, then you need to elevate your tactics and strategy and this team did not. That is why I blame the coaching way more than I blame the OL.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Quote:
A. We throw the ball so much because we're consistently behind and the running game stinks


And why does it stink? Because the o-line can't block. Because of this, it makes us one diminsional. Anytime an offense becomes one diminsional, the advantage goes to the defense immediately. It's not rocket science.


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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:38 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
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A. We throw the ball so much because we're consistently behind and the running game stinks

And why does it stink? Because the o-line can't block. Because of this, it makes us one diminsional. Anytime an offense becomes one diminsional, the advantage goes to the defense immediately. It's not rocket science.

You're 100% right.

But you know what compounds that one-dimensionality? Being very conservative with your passing game.

This past year, 4 other teams similarly couldn't "win" on 1st down with their running game. Falcons had 53 successful runs on 1st & 10 this year. Arizona & Tampa Bay had 55, Pittsburgh had 52, and Jacksonville had 45. These were the Bottom 5 teams in the league.

But then you look at how those teams compensated for their lack of rushing success on 1st & 10, by looking at the number of 1st downs they were able to generate on 1st down by passing:

Arizona - 71
Pittsburgh - 70
Jacksonville - 59
Atlanta - 58
Tampa Bay - 47

Now what is interesting about that is when you look at how many times those teams threw deep on 1st & 10:

Arizona - 23.6%
Pittsburgh - 20.9%
Tampa Bay - 18.5%
Jacksonville - 17.3%
Atlanta - 11.9%

Coincidence? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

When you know a team cannot run, and a team won't throw deep, the defense has an even greater advantage. All I ask is for the team to try to compensate.

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 Post subject: Re: It should be Dominique Time
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:37 pm 
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Quote:

I don't deny that the OL cost us the game. But even despite the worst OL performance of the Falcons in 12 seasons, if a handful of plays that don't involve the OL go another way, the Falcons win. Missed it by that much.


PUDGE NO ONE AT ANY POINT OF THE SEASON SAID WE CAN't WIN 1 GAME WITHOUT AN
OFFENSIVE LINE. You've made that up, we've win 4 plenty of times with No OFFENSIVE LINE
through the 75s-85s....... Everyone would call for new coaches and we'd get them then maybe go to 5-11 the next season......

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