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 Post subject: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:58 am 
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I lurk about other boards ( Roost, AFMB) and rarely post, but lately I've seen some excellent posts about the Vegan Genius...here are two

from JCWFalcon

"A key number I will be keeping in mind:

4-1-1

Thats the number of sacks, holding penalties, and false starts Clabo gave up last year.

Another number is 0. Thats the number of games missed by Clabo due to injury in the last 5 years.

How long into the season does it take for Lamar Holmes to surpass 4-1-1 and miss a game?

Yeah. Im gonna be mad about this one for a while. Or proven wrong, which would be awesome.

I was pissed when I thought it was a salary cap move.

Now that we have 7-8 mil in cap room, I am thinking either they tried to outsmart the room and prove the Lamar Holmes reach was warranted, or they had a lack of foresight to know how much room they would have. I believe Tyson was set to make less than 5 mil this year. And I am pissed to the point of being annoying.

The Falcons have had very few really good offensive linemen in our history. We cant afford to throw them away and still be successful. We put Bob Whitfield on a pedestal, and he gave up 2 false starts and a holding penalty...seemingly per game. The guy was f**** blind! Here we had a guy who had started over 80 games straight (I believe 91 straight), and over the course of those 80 games gave up a total of 20 sacks, 6 holding penalties, and 3 false starts, and we realeased him when we were supposedly in a "win now" mode and had the cap room to keep him. Not once did he show up with a walking boot on, or blame his ailing back.

If Clabo had just been kept, no new contract or negotiations necessary, we would barely be discussing the right side of the line. Pencil Clabo in and discuss other issues. Instead, we have a problem.

I get missed draft picks. I dont care if they are from the SEC or a small school, some hit, and some miss. I even get missing on free agents, although sometimes I wonder how you can miss on those with so many experts making millions and so much RELEVANT (like vs the same caliber guys you will be playing against)tape and time to evaluate how they would work in your system. I even get some additions being screwed up due to unforeseen injuries (although I do believe some guys are tough and durable, and others arent, and more often than not there is a pattern). What I REALLY dont f**** get is how you have guys on your team who ARE producing and are a BIG reason for your success, and you have the cap room to keep them around and you just choose to f**** give their rights away to the highest bidder. I especially dont get it if you dont plan to use that cap room. And I dont get it EVEN MORE when you plan to replace that guy with some late day 3 reach you took early on day 2 who has seemingly had a walking boot on for the majority of his adult life and will probably have on the epitaph on his tombstone the word "raw". What in the mock chicken salad f*** was shaggy thinking???

And its pretty much the same story with Abe. Teams leading sack person last year. And the year before. And the year before. And the year before. And the year before. Not a single person you have brought in or drafted has come close to his number of sacks. The closest is probably Babineaux, and he can thank McKay for that one too. AND he leads the franchise in sacks. And we were paying him less than 3-4 mil this year...and we cut him and signed a backup from the Giants...because hes younger. I am anxiously watching to see how that gamble pays off.

And in a do or die year...ROOKIE CB's. Asante WILL be injured some this year. Anyone NOT think that? Thats going to leave an overachieving nickleback (McClain) and two rookie CB's chasing whoever Brees and Newton choose to flip it up to....and either DeCoud or Fragile WillyMo's backup on the tape when they discuss how they took the wrong angle to prevent him from going all the way. Dunta had his issues, but he honestly wasnt that bad. Overpaid, but serviceable. I could see cutting Tyson, Abe, or Dunta and letting Grimes walk, but not all 4 to be replaced by Raw fragile fatass, the lesser of 4 de's on the Giants, and two green as hell rookie CB's.

And did I mention the glaring inability for our LB's to tackle or cover. Seems kind of important for a LB. Tackle or Cover. We have 3 guys who seemingly check neither box. Spoon is fun. Dent will get afforded every opportunity, because like Holmes, he was pulled directly from Dimitroffs ass, and Nicholas isnt even worth discussing. Did we cut all these guys to bring in a LB who can at least tackle Jimmy Graham or Greg Olsenfor a solid pass inference penalty? No. Doesnt seem so.

If I were Tony G I would be pissed. I really enjoyed last year. Reality is coming, and its going to hit hard. With this s***ty defense, and s***ty oline, we are one injury away from ANY of the top 5 weapons on offense from having a miserable fall (Ryan, Roddy, Julio, Tony, SJax). ANy of them go down for any length of time, and I put our odds of making the playoffs at 33%, except Ryan of course, which brings it down to .01% (bomb destroys entire northeast and some of the midwest type scenario).

And NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with the preseason. I could give a f*** about being 0-3 in meaningless games. "

and this from JRid at AFMB :

"completely believe that continuity is extremely important, which is why I was confused and a bit freaked out months ago. I was worried about the center situation before they even cut Clabo because that is a huge deal. Konz has looked pretty good, but he will make mistakes.

They said several times that it's time for these young guys to start playing and step up, but 3 at one time is extremely difficult. I guess they had confidence in Mike Johnson and of course couldn't predict he would go down.

The Oline wasn't very good when we had Dahl, Clabo, and Svitek so we had to do something, There must be a reason for 3 new guys, but I can't figure it out yet. Maybe they were thinking G. Reynolds has played RT, M. Johnson has been around awhile, and Konz, Reynolds, and Johnson have been practicing with each other a lot.

I keep thinking back to what some here have mentioned about using the extra cap space for next years cap space. There has to be something to that because that's the only thing that makes sense. I've been thinking TD might need the money to make a big trade, but I think there is a slim chance of that now. I also wonder if there was a player TD tried to sign in the off season and couldn't. When Clabo got cut he mentioned there were several players they wanted to bring in so they needed his money..."

so, if TD stays pat, doesn't bring in a vet on the right side of the OL, I think this will be a season where we regress, and some of that has to be on TD. :ninja:

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Good rants. Can't say that I disagree. Thomas Dimitroff doesn't have a very good eye for the lines. He has tried, and failed miserably, to deal with the defensive line, and I don't think that he's properly addressed the OL. But most folks disagree with me, so...


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Now when the Falcons win 11+ games this year, most of these complaints about TD will go away.

And then if/when the Falcons get bounced early from the playoffs, people will switch their blame game towards Mike Smith and/or Matt Ryan.

Now does that make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Now when the Falcons win 11+ games this year, most of these complaints about TD will go away.

And then if/when the Falcons get bounced early from the playoffs, people will switch their blame game towards Mike Smith and/or Matt Ryan.

Now does that make sense?


I think you meant to say if or when, because the Falcons are going to Metlife this year and I'll be there representing.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:26 am 
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Look I'm the guy who said the Falcons might go 6-10, but I must answer some questions.

Fun Gus wrote
Quote:
If Clabo had just been kept, no new contract or negotiations necessary, we would barely be discussing the right side of the line. Pencil Clabo in and discuss other issues. Instead, we have a problem.


Clabo has never been great. After his 8th year (last year) I'll bet he never plays as well as he did last year. I can have that opinion just as much as the guy who claims Clabo would steady our whole right side. Clabo is ready to go downhill so we let him go. I know what is easy to say you don't do; but just because his stats were good last year, doesn't equal this year.

I miss Abe but he was a shell of himself by season's end, and I don't think Osi will be any better.

Look its never fun but occasionally you go back a year to move forward; and for the record I never liked Johnson, he's been given chances before and could never win a job for injury or he just got beat out.

Look The Falcons won't be terrible for Matt Ryan and the receiving corp. I don't want to go backwards but what's important is for all these younger players to improve and have decent years compared to the past....

Fun Gus I understand your logic and its football solid; unless Thomas D. can see 3 steps ahead of us; we make a playoff run and maybe get in, and in the process pave the way for the future.

What worried me from the start and the 0-3 in preseason is I remember saying that for years; but nothing changing once the season starts.

Stephen Jackson is also a wildcard that I think will make a ton of yards catching passes out of the backfield.... This will open up other things.......He's had close to nothing said about him; and he's a stud!!

Actually the Falcons have looked better in preseason than I thought..... Its the defense that's going to kill us and I see this year as a rebuilding year.... Better to do that than keep all your older players and fail and being in worse position next year.

Nobody will go back and look it up when Clabo has a lousy year. I remember losing Dahl but he's never been that good, but everyone bitched but I don't think anyone looked it up.

I don't feel sorry for Tony G. Every time he hits the field he'll catch some passes and further his legacy as one of the best players ever. The 12 million he makes is also to remember he's not doing this for free.

Finally its years like this that sometimes one or two players step up. If we get the production for Jackson like I'm expecting I'll be called the idiot, and Thomas D. the smart one. Keeping someone can be just as big a mistake as letting them go!!

Ps. I know those thinking Super Bowl will want this just flamed over a strong fire; but I can handle what looks to be poor moves if we can stay competitive this year and be even better next year. Remember neither Super BOWL TEAM FROM 2012 MADE THE PLAYOFFS last year!! What does this say??

They didn't quit, their reloading for now.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:25 am 
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again, preseason record means nothing to me.

What matters to me is what I see on the field. The offensive and defensive lines look pretty weak. They are certainly not a strength of this team. I happen to be one of those folks that thinks that the game is won in the trenches. I have not been happy with what I've seen from our lines in the pre-season.

That said, this team tends to look a lot different when the regular season gets here. I have little choice but to hope/pray that the lines are better than they have looked so far. However, it would not surprise me one bit if our failure to spend resources on the lines ends up having a significant negative impact on our season.


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:55 am 
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Quote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, preseason record means nothing to me.


108 teams have gone winless in the preseason and 14 have made the playoffs. That's only 13%. Though I must mention that 4 of those 14 teams have come from 2009 to the present.

Just throwing it out there.


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
Clabo has never been great. After his 8th year (last year) I'll bet he never plays as well as he did last year. I can have that opinion just as much as the guy who claims Clabo would steady our whole right side. Clabo is ready to go downhill so we let him go. I know what is easy to say you don't do; but just because his stats were good last year, doesn't equal this year.

Clabo peaked in 2010. He hasn't been the same player since then, but he's still be a very good RT and certainly an above average to good starter for the most part. On his lesser days, he was still an average starter by NFL standards. On his better days, he was certainly a Top 10 RT.

I get why the Falcons got rid of him. He was on the decline, as was Abe, who completely fell off over the final month of the season. But Clabo hadn't hit that decline, and I still think both players could have produced at a relatively high level this year. Probably not to the degree that they wouldn't be above average to good starters this year.

That's the difference between cutting them a "year too early" than with Turner last year, who had declined to the point where he was very likely to be a below average NFL starter. Frankly, Turner was at best an average NFL starter in 2011. So the Falcons are learning from their mistakes, but not quite applying them to the effectiveness that I would like.

Cyril wrote:
Stephen Jackson is also a wildcard that I think will make a ton of yards catching passes out of the backfield.... This will open up other things.......He's had close to nothing said about him; and he's a stud!!

Agreed, but his name is Steven, not Stephen. Yes it's a nitpick, but Stephen Jackson is this guy:

Image

Not this guy:

Image

Respect the dude enough to call him by the name his mama gave him. :wink:

Cyril wrote:
Remember neither Super BOWL TEAM FROM 2012 MADE THE PLAYOFFS last year!

Am I confused by who you are referring to? Because the Patriots did make the playoffs last year. They went to the AFC Championship game and lost to the Ravens last year.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Fact: Thomas Dimitroff once got pulled over speeding, and the cop ended up with the ticket.
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Getting down to a 53 man roster won't be easy. Given the plethora of talent to choose from and recurring need to save money, it's natural to think the Falcons may make one or more veterans a cap casualty. But then you'd be wrong ...

The Falcons presently have $7.9 million in cap space. First of all, the need to cut any veterans for salary cap purposes with that amount in reserve is dubious. Standing alone, $7.9 million is more than enough to account for emergencies. And make no mistake, there where be emergencies (i.e., players will get hurt, and the Falcon will be left paying them to be worthless on injured reserve). Then there's the future benefit. The rub, if you will.
Under the current collective bargaining agreement, teams can roll over cap space. Yes, I said, you can literally roll all over it like Scrooge McDuck after a Xanax bender. Mind you, cap space must be rolled over formally, meaning a team must notify the league of its intention to roll over a specific maximum amount in writing no later than 14 days before the start of the next league year. If the teams ends up rolling over less than their specific maximum, no big deal. Each league year starts in March, which means the Falcons could, at least in theory, accumulate some cap space now, hold onto it for the duration of 2013, then notify the league of their intention to roll over whatever is left, immediately after they win the next Superbowl. Pretty awesome, eh?

So which veterans need to have their heads on a swivel? None. At least not for salary-cap related reasons.
It's tempting to top the list with Stephen Nicholas. His struggles are well-documented, but really, he's just a little too mediocre for comfort. While he represents a $3.5 million cap hit this year, he represents $3 million in dead money if we cut him. For those of you not in-the-know, "dead money" is basically money a team loses, one way or another, if a particular player is cut or otherwise rendered a non-Falcon. At that rate, the Falcons stand to net only $0.5 million by cutting Nicholas. Not exactly worth it, especially if you feel like he's capable of contributing this year.

Another possibility is Peria Jerry, though that seems unlikely if not impossible given Mike Smith's indication that he'd be back from his head/face injury by week one. Jerry represents a $2.01 million cap hit, but he'd only represent $1.11 million in potential dead money. The Falcons could potentially add almost a million dollars to their cap availability by cutting him, though they will probably pass, because Thomas Dimitroff is never wrong in the 1st round. That and Jerry's an adequate rotational player.

Jason Snelling seems to have fallen out of favor in Falconsland this preseason, and you may be thinking we could save some money by getting rid of him. The problem is that he's only a $1.2 million cap hit while potentially costing the Falcons $0.71 million in dead money. Again, not a lot of flexibility to be had by tossing him to the curb. If he is cut, it's not to save money, it's because Ronnie Wingo is a ferocious manbeast with equal or better potential.

I know some of you are thinking about Harry Douglas, but don't just don't, because you'll upset the children. His cap hit ($2.65 million) is less than what he represents in potential dead money ($2.69 million). Are y'all noticing a theme here? Because of contract structuring, the Falcons can't save a ton of money by cutting any vets worth cutting. Sure, we could cut some veterans whose cap hits far outweigh the dead money they potentially represent - I'm talking to you Matt Bryant, Roddy White, and Asante Samuel - but that'd be really really really ridiculously foolish. Not going to happen, because it wouldn't be prudent.

Now, mind you, cutting a veteran is rarely about his talent level or salary cap number alone. It's usually a consideration of both that lands a veteran in the unemployment line. I mean to shed some light on the value of cutting a current Falcons veteran, or lack thereof, not to suggest that players are never cut-worthy for salary cap-related reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Am I confused by who you are referring to? Because the Patriots did make the playoffs last year. They went to the AFC Championship game and lost to the Ravens last year.


I was thinking the Steelers & Giants, sorry, I don't get as much by memory as
I use too.

Quote:
Agreed, but his name is Steven, not Stephen. Yes it's a nitpick, but Stephen Jackson is this guy:


Its your site, you may nitpick as much as you want!! My point is STEVEN was a free
agent picked up by Thomas D. who I think is quietly being held back and he may be the one who helps lead us to the playoffs. I'm basically saying that every year Thomas D. is mentioned harshly about what he hasn't done, when he usually does more than we think.

In other words although I said 6-10 I realize saying that so early leaves me very open to being wrong. . Regardless of this year I would rather have a young Thomas D. moving forward than about anyone. That 5 years of experience should not be overlooked as we move forward.

I'll mention again (probably being the oldest on the board ) that my bad experiences in the past INCLUDED poor preseason games with everyone saying well these don't count. However those usually didn't include a Matt Ryan & Julio Jones. I still believe its the defense that will kill us ......

I do believe with Robert it almost always starts upfront. (within reason) Who do we have on defense that's going to rush the passer.??

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Image


Dude looks like The Predator in this picture.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:04 pm 
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The Falcons hopes this year mostly fall on Steven Jackson being able to get back to beast mode behind a decidedly better run blocking O-Line and vastly superior pass attack. Here's hoping the threat S-Jax offers is enough to offset a mediocre pass blocking unit.

In addition to that The Falcons need Trufant or Alford to play ROY level at DB and one of the young pass rushers on the D-Line to step up to offer something outside of Babs/Osi as a pass rushing threat.

I still think Atlanta will struggle immensely with option teams and in all likelihood our path to the Super Bowl will run through one or both of the teams that do it best: Seattle & San Francisco. We also have another good example in that style of team in Carolina which we see twice. If Atlanta is sub-.500 in those 4 games I'm not liking out chances of a title.

Ironically the Falcons player the Panthers right before the Seahawks and right after the Niners.

Quick scan of the schedule and I like the Falcons to go 13-3 at best. I think on the low end this squad is a 10-6 team heading for a re-tool.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
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Clabo has never been great. After his 8th year (last year) I'll bet he never plays as well as he did last year. I can have that opinion just as much as the guy who claims Clabo would steady our whole right side. Clabo is ready to go downhill so we let him go. I know what is easy to say you don't do; but just because his stats were good last year, doesn't equal this year.


Pudge Wrote
Quote:
Clabo peaked in 2010. He hasn't been the same player since then, but he's still be a very good RT and certainly an above average to good starter for the most part. On his lesser days, he was still an average starter by NFL standards. On his better days, he was certainly a Top 10 RT.


Are you sure that's not a slip-up?? I never remember you or anyone comparing Clabo
to a top 10 Rt? Clabo was never close to a top ten tackle..Or if he was he was the least mentioned top 1o tackle in history, unless he
mostly has lesser days which is what I remember. If you think Clabo was above average we just disagree.....He may have just averaged a few sacks a game but Clabo let speed rushers flushed Ryan out of the pocket a lot which is discouraging when you have the right play called!!

In fact about 7 years ago when we made him gain 20 lbs and moved him from guard to tackle which was a mistake. Tackles may be harder to come by but Thomas D. or Coach Smith didn't have anything to do with that!!

Now he was a surer thing than Holmes, I was just giving my reasoning why he was
probably cut, since you agree he peaked 2 years ago, we can't really know what Johnson would have done but he's been on the team long enough to to at least played a little?? I'm sure they wish they had Clabo now, as Gus pointed out he was good for 16 games.... You know your gonna have problems when you need to keep players based on their durability.

Its these injuries to unknown players which is really gonna cause us problems;
because of our lack of depth which has been addressed to death.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one Cyril, because I do believe that in his prime (2008-10), Clabo was among the 10 best right tackles in the league.

He may not be quite as good as players like Kareem McKenzie, Eric Winston, Sebastian Vollmer, or Michael Oher on their best days. But he's on par with players like Bryan Bulaga, David Stewart, Damien Woody, Sean Locklear, Vernon Carey, Flozell Adams, Ryan Diem, Willie Colon, etc. who have been widely considered to be good right tackles over the past 5 years.

Clabo was never a dominant blocker in his time, but he was consistently capable. And IMO, it wasn't until the first half of the 2011 and the first half of 2012 where we saw Clabo struggle in pass protection. Since I've been reviewing games starting in 2009, there is without a doubt that Clabo that has been our most consistent good blocker up front in that time span.

In fact, IMO, Clabo's "poor" play is really just relative to his usually solid to good play. For most of 2011-12, a "bad" day fo Clabo was just what was "normal" for other Falcons blockers (namely Sam Baker) in previous years.

Clabo rarely looked outmatched in 2009 and 2010, and probably in the 3 previous years he started for the Falcons as well, that when he did so in 2011 and 2012, it was jarring and odd, and certainly stood out more.

4+ years of very consistent play buys you a lot more leeway in my book.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:46 am 
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Clabo has been our best lineman for quite a while. I always thought that he would have been a better guard than a tackle. At this point, I'd happily have his salary back in the mix as opposed to the guys that we have at RG and RT.


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:17 am 
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Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one Cyril, because I do believe that in his prime (2008-10), Clabo was among the 10 best right tackles in the league.


Well I just don't remember you or anyone saying so?? Yes I agree he might have been our best but I don't remember a top 10 tackle since Mike Kenn 100 years ago (:

Usually top 10 linemen don't just fall apart in their 7 or 8th year unless for major injury....Well lets just disagree then, today it won't help us.

Robert he did start out as a free-agent guard.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:51 am 
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Cyril wrote:
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Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one Cyril, because I do believe that in his prime (2008-10), Clabo was among the 10 best right tackles in the league.


Well I just don't remember you or anyone saying so?? Yes I agree he might have been our best but I don't remember a top 10 tackle since Mike Kenn 100 years ago (:

Usually top 10 linemen don't just fall apart in their 7 or 8th year unless for major injury....Well lets just disagree then, today it won't help us.

Robert he did start out as a free-agent guard.

Indeed he did. I'm not at all opposed to giving UDFA's a shot. (We have several on the squad this year that I'm pulling for.)


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:08 pm 
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I'm surprised the Falcons axed Clabo considering this is somewhat of an all-or-bust season for Atlanta. If we don't make it to the Super Bowl this year I would expect Atlanta to start retooling parts of the roster since we have a lot of players that are critical at their positions at the end of their careers (Samuel, White, Jackson, Gonzalez, Babs, Osi). With the exception of Asante Samuel none of those players have an heir apparent on the roster.

If this really was the make or break year for Atlanta they should have hung onto Clabo. Maybe rework his deal but Atlanta must have thought that Clabo had declined enough that he didn't offer a upgrade over our other options at tackle for the dollars Clabo's contract had left on it.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
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Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one Cyril, because I do believe that in his prime (2008-10), Clabo was among the 10 best right tackles in the league.


Well I just don't remember you or anyone saying so?? Yes I agree he might have been our best but I don't remember a top 10 tackle since Mike Kenn 100 years ago (:

Usually top 10 linemen don't just fall apart in their 7 or 8th year unless for major injury....Well lets just disagree then, today it won't help us.

I should note that I'm making a distinction between tackles overall and right tackles. Of course Clabo is not a Top 10 tackle, when you put LTs in the mix. Hell, even if you had the best RT in the league, there's probably 12-15 LTs that are better than him.

I know many people early on wanted to move Clabo to OG, and move Baker over to RT. I too thought initially that Clabo was better suited for OG than OT, but by 2010 I stopped thinking that. Because he was such a good RT that there was really no point thinking that he was somehow "less" in that role.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:10 am 
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Pudge wrote:

He may not be quite as good as players like Kareem McKenzie, Eric Winston, Sebastian Vollmer, or Michael Oher on their best days. But he's on par with players like Bryan Bulaga, David Stewart, Damien Woody, Sean Locklear, Vernon Carey, Flozell Adams, Ryan Diem, Willie Colon, etc. who have been widely considered to be good right tackles over the past 5 years..


Flozell Adams was largely a left tackle through most of his career. And at his peak, was a pretty good one. 5x Pro Bowler.

It was only when he ended his career at Pittsburgh that he returned to being a right tackle.

So, Tyson's *career* really isn't comparable to Flozell's career.

Damien Woody didn't start out at right tackle either, and spent the majority of his career at center and guard.

Tyson Clabo, by contrast, is largely a career right tackle, with one Pro Bowl season.

D-

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:51 am 
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Fair point on Flozell. Had forgotten that he played exclusively LT for Dallas. Was thinking he had moved to RT over the last portion of his time there.

Woody played the last 4 years of his career at RT, which was from 2007-10, a comparable period of time for Clabo, which is why I used him as an example. He was on those good Jets O-lines with Mangold, Moore, Ferguson, and Faneca back around '08 and '09 when they were widely considered to have one of the best OLs in football. And while you're right, he began his career at center in NE before moving to mostly guard in Detroit, it didn't really seem like he found his footing until he moved to right tackle in New York.

My point wasn't to compare careers, just saying that in his prime, I think Clabo was just a step below the elite right tackles of his era. I just disagreed with Cyril's implication that Clabo was J.A.G. I know he wasn't great in the sense that Mike Kenn or even Bob Whitfield was for the Falcons. Analogous to not being Tom Brady, but being Drew Bledsoe.

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:26 am 
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Who is Drew Bledsoe. (:

Just kidding, we cut Claybo and we're talking about stuff that only reminds me that
our Offensive Line hasn't been great working as a unit, and now we hope all these new guys jell.....

I think although Konz has shown he can play against stronger people I'm afraid his learning curve will be steep.... We may find out all those years that McClure was thrown under the bus; we may see that he was our best lineman...

You don't start in the Nfl forever if you suck!!

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:47 am 
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McClure beat the pants off of a bunch of mid to low round draft picks, and has never really been challenged for his spot. For as long as I can remember, we haven't done much in terms of improving the quality of our offensive line. There have been little steps here and there. Notably, we got Konz last year. Holmes is a 3rd round project. Reynolds is... I don't know what the heck Reynolds is. He has never impressed me, but he seemingly has the hearts and minds of the coaching staff. Baker is solid, but we did reach for him. (I wanted him in the 2nd round, but there was a run on OTs that year, so it's understandable that TD moved up to get him.) That said, he has done a decent enough job of protecting Ryan.

At the end of the day, we do not have a, "stud," offensive lineman. We've had some opportunities to acquire such a player, but we have not done so. I would feel a lot better about our line if one of the players was a standout who we could build around. As it is, we have a bunch of mediocre guys who are sometimes good, sometimes bad. The word, "Inconsistent," sums up our line pretty well.


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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:25 am 
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RobertAP wrote:
McClure beat the pants off of a bunch of mid to low round draft picks,

Yeah, they're called centers. Outside the Alex Macks and Damien Woodys of the world, 95% of centers are mid and low round draft picks.

The fact that Roberto Garza has gone on to start 8 years in Chicago since departing Atlanta I think would suggest that McClure beating him out directly in '02 or '03 (can't remember exactly which year) is not exactly some meaningless accomplishment.

RobertAP wrote:
[McClure] has never really been challenged for his spot.

Neither were Kevin Mawae, Olin Kreutz, Jeff Saturday, Hines Ward, Casey Wiegmann, Takeo Spikes, Darren Sharper, Keith Brooking, and Jon Runyan. All of whom like McClure started over 180 games in their careers.

Point being, there's a reason why he wasn't challenged, because he didn't need to be.

If/when the Falcons O-line manages to stink this year sans McClure, maybe, just maybe it will quell the myth that McClure was holding us back for the past 13 years. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: this year the wheels fly off the TD bandwagon..
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:45 am 
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Quote:
The fact that Roberto Garza has gone on to start 8 years in Chicago since departing Atlanta I think would suggest that McClure beating him out directly in '02 or '03 (can't remember exactly which year) is not exactly some meaningless accomplishment


Jeez I said that a year ago and you threw a fit towards me. Your right though, he was really brought here to beat out McClure, I knew him a little (when I hung around more) and he was great guy, but he always respected McClure and always called it a battle. It was the biggest test McClure had IMO.

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