most damning statement of all

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Re: most damning statement of all

Postby RobertAP » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:27 am

I realize that there are talent issues on the defense. But I also wonder if our coaching on the defensive side of the ball has prevented people from developing.

So that we're clear, I fault TD for missing on Jerry and for bringing in Edwards. In both cases, I believe that we could have avoided the situation.

Now that we have that out of the way... I fault Smith for not getting more out of Edwards. When it comes down to it, Edwards produced before he got here. Once he was here he turned into the invisible man. A lot of that is on Edwards, but I think that it's safe to assume that some of that is on our coaching staff as well.

Biermann has shown flashes as well, but has never taken the next step. I mean, a LOT of people predicted him to have a breakout year a couple of years ago. It just never materialized.

Spoon looked like he was poised to be the best OLB in the NFL, but he was, "ok," this year. Spoon has great field awareness/vision. He is capable of being a heck of a baller. However, he seemingly gets disinterested in the game after a while.

Moore and Decoud look like they could be great, but they're inconsistent as hell.

And yes, what the heck happened to Sidbury? I'm not for a second going to claim that Sidbury is the next Abraham, but I'm also befuddled as to why he's not seeing the field AT ALL. He has certainly flashed potential when given the opportunity. So what gives?

Perhaps any one of these things, taken on their own, could be passed off as a player with a poor attitude/work ethic. When the whole team exhibits similar inconsistency issues, I'm thinking the problem runs a bit deeper. Even though Nolan came up with the scheme and called the defensive plays, it's still Smith's team. Under Smith, we have heard players consistently speak the word, "Complacent." That's really not a good word. And when I hear players use those kinds of words, my first thought is, "the coach lost them."

And then you hear about Mike Smith, the disciplinarian. On Monday, Mike gets out his list and he makes all of the players who got penalties stand up in front of the team and apologize. OMFG. What is this, pee wee league? It's one thing to hold people accountable. It's another to treat grown men like kindergarten kids. No wonder the coach is losing these guys.

Sorry, now I'm just ranting. I'm a bit tired of hearing about that every week and seeing Mike Smith with his little notepad. I sure as hell wouldn't want to play for someone like that. Little old ladies do that kind of crap. "I'm writing your name down." Hey Mike, they pay people to record the game... They have people who can tell you who got penalized, what they got penalized for, etc. Put your stupid notepad away and stop being an old lady.

Rant over. I await my cremation.

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Re: most damning statement of all

Postby backnblack » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:18 am

I like Smitty. :up:

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Re: most damning statement of all

Postby fun gus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:51 am

RobertAP wrote:Perhaps any one of these things, taken on their own, could be passed off as a player with a poor attitude/work ethic. When the whole team exhibits similar inconsistency issues, I'm thinking the problem runs a bit deeper. Even though Nolan came up with the scheme and called the defensive plays, it's still Smith's team. Under Smith, we have heard players consistently speak the word, "Complacent." That's really not a good word..

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Re: most damning statement of all

Postby Pudge » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:39 pm

fun gus wrote:
fun gus wrote:who is blaming the QB, Pudge? Who is blaming the OFFENSE? Clearly, the blame lies in the DEFENSE.

QUIT PLAYING THE CHANGE THE GOALPOSTS GAME. were talking about the Falcon's DEFENSE. Were 5 seasons, two coordinators, and how many moves to 'improve' it now? We suck in the 2nd half of any playoff games, 4 times.. Stat's be damned. Your argument, as I see it, is John HB didn't 'f*ck up' what he inheirited when he took over the Ravens. Really?

I do not buy the 'were not good enough' screed. Sorry, Pudge, no can do. :snooty:

So the reason our D regularly shuts down in the 2nd half is because 'they are just not that good'? And coaching has nothing to do with this? I'll think about it, but I am not sure I can buy into that.

That is your argument. The defense can't get 2nd half stops because they have "deficient" coaching? My point is that if that is the case, then it would apply to other teams? So then the primary reason why the Ravens get stops is because they've had superior coaching? Wouldn't that also mean that Belichick has become a lesser coach in the past 4 years because of how bad the Patriots defense has been the past few years?

The last time the Pats had a Top 10 defense was in 2009. Interesting that Richard Seymour, Tedy Bruschi, and Mike Vrabel all left after 2008. '09 would mark the last years that Ty Warren, and the last time they would get good production from 2 corners in Shawn Springs and Leigh Bodden.

The reason why the Patriots can't get stops against the 2011 & 2012 Ravens, as well as getting carved up by the Jets in 2010 playoffs must because of Belichick's deficient coaching right?

No, you probably don't believe that. The reason why the Patriots defense has struggled is because they just don't have the talent like they used to.

Those Patriot defense are exactly the same as teh Falcons. They always rank well in scoring defense because they don't give up a ton of points. They also generate a bunch of turnovers, as they've ranked in the Top 3 in takeaways the past 3 years. But they give yards like no one's business, ranking no better than 25th in total defense. Sound familiar?

The problem for the Patriots defense is they get carved up in the secondary. It isn't about their coaching, it's about their talent. On defense, it's mostly about talent. On offense, sure it's about coaching. You don't need to be the most talented, can you succeed by being more innovative than the other teams. As we've seen in the college game, and now it's filtering up to the pros with Chip Kelly, the pistol, the speed no-huddle, etc.

The rules are such that all the benefits go to the offense. I'm telling you anything you already don't know. But how this is reflected in the game itself, is that the only way to counter on defense is with talent. Sure, you can be Dick LeBeau or Rex Ryan or whomever and be a great defensive coach. As we've seen with people like Dom Capers, Wade Philips, and yes Mike Nolan in recent years. Coaching matters, but the main thing with defense comes down to talent. The only way to get ahead of the next innovation on offense is to just have players that are simply good enough to adapt. You need athletes. You need players like Von Miller and J.J. Watt and Justin Smith and Darrelle Revis that can just take over games.

It's having guys like Haloti Ngata who is unblockable one on one. It's about Terrell Suggs, who has been one of the 5 or 6 best pass rushers over the past 5 or 6 years. It's about having a leader like Ray Lewis manning the middle. Corners like Chris McAlister and Lardarius Webb who was the Brent Grimes of slot corners in 2011, it's about Ed Reed. Now with the Ravens, they have benefited similar to the Steelers is that when you're already good it's easier to continue to build off that. But with the Falcons you're building essentially from scratch. It takes time.

Corey Peters was projected by most to be a 5th round pick because he didn't possess exceptional quickness, power, or anything to suggest he'd be a top pass rusher or run stopper. He could be capable, but not a dominant player. We drafted him in the 3rd round. And while Peters has to some degree lived up to his draft status, he's not a dominant player. Nearly every team in the league has a defensive tackle as good as Corey Peters on their roster. The reason why I've never been enamored with Corey Peters, when many have fellated him earlier in his career is that he's not very quick off the ball. Lawrence Sidbury was a 4th round pick, but he was a raw speed rusher that dominated non-NFL talent in the FCS. Maybe he could develop, but people shouldn't act like it's some tragedy that he didn't develop. Teams use mid-round picks on players like Sidbury all the time and they don't develop. As it has been noted time and time again, there are very few impact pass rushers that aren't Top 15 picks. That doesn't mean that Jared Allen or Trent Cole don't come along from time to time, hell even a Matt Shaughnessy, but you shouldn't be surprised if all you wind up with is the next Arthur Moats or Austen Lane.

Stephen Nicholas struggles in coverage because he doesn't have good hips, and he really struggles to turn and run. So any competent TE (and we saw many this year) are going to beat him in coverage. Mike Peterson can't run more than 5 yards anymore. Akeem Dent you can't trust because he's still green, and even then he was a player that many people saw as just a 5th-7th round talent that we took in Round 3. Kroy has a good motor, but he's not that quick off the ball nor does have the sort of size, strength, and frame to use power. Paul Kruger is a better athlete and is also 6-4 and has the strength at 270 pounds because it was not that long ago that he was a 275-pound power DE in their 3-man front. He's having success because at least in terms of talent he approaches the Patrick Kerney mold.

Dunta Robinson gets beat all the time in coverage because he has sloppy technique, footwork, and awareness. He like a large number of corners have thrived solely off their superior athleticism, without developing the finer points of playing position. This is why players like him and DeAngelo Hall lose it at age 30, while others like Champ Bailey, Charles Woodson, and yes I believe Brent Grimes had he not torn his Achilles can remain productive up to age 33, 34, or beyond. Yes, all those players are "plus" athletes of course, but they also develop technique and stuff. Grimes and Samuel get beat almost as much as Robinson does, but they make up for it with ball skills. Robinson is just like Chris Houston was, a good athlete. And in this day and age with the offense being where it is, if you can't break up as many passes as third down completions given up, you are a liability.

Thomas DeCoud is a solid safety, but he's nothing special in the talent department. He gets by because he's fast, not physical. He's a 190-pound safety that struggles to hit and tackle. He can run in a straight line as good as anybody on this roster but if he takes a wrong angle or the ballcarrier can square his shoulders, he's not going to be a reliable tackler. And again, he's straight-line which is why Cal moved him from corner to safety after his freshman. It's why he gets beat when he's 1 on 1 against any competent NFL wideout or tight end. Moore hits like a mac truck but he too has stiff hips and can't match up on an island in coverage.

Neither of these guys are going to be Earl Thomas or Ed Reed, both Top 25 picks BTW.

Ray Edwards wasn't any good. He was successful in Minnesota because of players like Kevin Williams and Jared Allen being able to draw double teams which allowed him to go on an island 1 on 1 against inferior right tackles. He was a one-note speed rusher that didn't have enough speed to beat quality left tackles, but could work over the J'Marcus Webbs and Marc Colombos of the league. Then he comes to Atlanta, and instead of rehabbing in the off-season, he takes up boxing out of spite for the Vikings. And he's more interested in the "fruits" of being a football player rather than working on his craft. He's the type of player that is playing for a big contract, as opposed to because he loves the game. He never fit in the Falcons locker room.

Belichick went through the same basic thing with Adalius Thomas in New England. Thomas was great in Baltimore, but left and just never really bought into the Patriot Way. He was miscast in that locker room, and they dumped him after 2 years just like we did with Edwards.

Look, I can go through the roster backwards and forwards and break it down for you fun gus and RobertAP. Again, I'm not saying coaching has nothing to do with it. I'm just saying that your conclusion that since we haven't seen improved results the past 5 years must mean that coaching is the problem is not accurate.

Look, going back to the Patriots, it's not a coincidence that guys like Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Willie McGinest, etc. are 1st and 2nd round picks and with middle round guys like Harrison, Samuel, Bruschi, etc. they formed what was for many years.

How many 1st & 2nd round picks have the Falcons invested in their defense? 4? Jerry, Moore, Spoon, and Lofton. 3 of them turned into solid to good players. You can't draft 4 guys over 3 years and think that's going to fix the problem. Not unless you really hit it out of the park with those 3 guys.

Look, and I'm not going to act like this is just a TD problem. It goes back to McKay with whiffs on Jimmy Williams, Jamaal Anderson, Chris Houston. Unfortunately for the Falcons even on occasions when they do get a good return on their investment (D Hall & Lofton), they only play 4 years with us and move on.

It's not going to happen over night. It takes time. This is what I was complaining about TD before in thinking that he only has to build for 3 years and then can sell the farm on 1 player. No, this takes much longer than that. You look at what McKay did in TB, Parcells/Belichick did in NE, and Polian in IND where they took historically bad teams, and it took them 9 years from their arrivals to win those teams won their first Super Bowls.

It's not something that anybody wants to hear. If this thing is going to get solved, and not just the defense, but the entire team, it's going to take several years of good drafting before we are where Baltimore is.
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.

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Re: most damning statement of all

Postby Emmitt » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:39 am

Pudge's post is an early contender for post of the year. Nice gem with the Edwards picture and being spot on about everything. In terms of the defensive tackle situation, I want Jerry cut and everyone to stay. They should add a defensive tackle to challenge Peters for a starting role. Babineaux is set as a starter and Walker should come back to continue to be a solid backup. I wasn't aware of how shaky the defensive tackle situation is, but it's pretty shaky. This is a big year for Peters to step up.

I'm a Devin Hester guy.

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