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 Post subject: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:48 am 
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Okay, enough about Jerious Jones and let's get to talking about where our depth is really piss poor.

After watching last nights game and some of this weekends games with backup QB's playing, who here thinks if Ryan goes down were set? Good grief that Colin Kaepernick looked like he is the real deal.

We already have OL 'issues'. Adderol Boy is now sidelined for 4 games. McClure is not 100%. We have 'crosstrained' guys playing out of position. None of this makes me very comfortable with our backups.

If I am Smitty, here's what I do.

I pull Dominique Davis off the scout team and I put McCown back there ( unless were playing against a team with a mobile QB and need Davis to shadow) and I start giving him all the 2nd team reps. I plug him into Ryan's hip on the sidelines and tell McCown to go tote some H20 bottles.

My thinking if Ryan goes down for any extended period of time ( lets say 2-3 games) were pretty much screwed anyways. Might as well see what DD can do.

If McCown goes in and struggles, I am telling you right now there WILL be a QB controversy. The ONLY way that doesn't happen, is if McCown comes in and does an okay job. I dont see that happening looking down the stretch, especially vs the tough part of the schedule and given the current division standings.

So be proactive and get Davis some 2nd team reps, now!

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Ryan hasn't been hurt since 2009. What's the point of this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Emmitt wrote:
Ryan hasn't been hurt since 2009. What's the point of this thread?



The point, young Emmitt, is that it is better to be prepared when sh*t hits the fan then try and scramble.

Nobody 'wants' Matt Ryan to 'get hurt'. But, if it does happen, you better have a plan to deal with it.

As I see it, the plan right now is to hand off the duties to Like McCown. Okay, I hope that works out. But, if it does not: I Gay Ron Tee with a Capital 'T' there will be a QB controversy right here in our back yard.

Look at CB depth. Grimes goes out, Asante steps up. Asante goes out, McClain steps up.

Peria goes out, Corey Peters steps up. Peters goes out, up comes Walker.

See what I am getting at? But the 2 places where we could really get f*cked is IF Matt Ryan goes out, or Julio does.

If Ryan goes out, I have Dominique Davis ready to go. I know this will inspire the 'rearranging the Titanic deckchairs' chorus. But, it's prolly insance, you could rearrange those deckchairs so that they aren't in the waywhen you plummet to your icy death.. 8-)

There is plenty of film of Luke Mccown. Everyone in the league knows exactly what he 'can' and 'cannot' do. http://www.jagsreport.com/2011/09/jagua ... cord-book/

Both Luke AND John Mccown are throwaways. Im sorry, its just a fact. The thought of Like McCown behind center scare the livin bejjebus out of me. Honestly. Not to say Redman would have been any great improvement, but were stuck with what we have...

There is no or not very much film on DD. He is clearly more mobile and has the better arm. He is an untested rookie, I know and he may not be heady enough to get up to speed, but I think he is the better option. Thus, I would rearrange the depth chart and move DD to 2nd backup and get him some reps.

Kinda like, with Julio injured, Harry Douglas limpin around last week, I would have signed Plaxico TODAY for the vet minimum. Drew Davis is fine, but I would have Plaxico on the team and I would cut Antione Smith, or Mike Cox and use Snelling if we need a FB until Hawley comes off suspension.

But these are things you do if your looking down the road. :up: Hopefully everyone stays healthy and Im just being paranoid...wouldn't be the first time. :dance:

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Our depth at Safety is super weak also. Signing Plax would have been the move to make as soon as Julio came up lame in the Saints game. We need a Vertical threat outside of Julio and until we get it we will pretty much be the same offense we were prior to JJ arrival here in Atlanta. Matter of fact you could argue that we are worst because at least we had M.Jenkins.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:16 pm 
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The real depth problem is that the Falcons have no depth...

No depth at QB, WR, TE, DE, S, CB, LB, O-Line in general, RB, FB.

Any start goes down and we have a significant drop in performance to the backup.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:00 pm 
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If you think Davis is going to get ready by the end of this year, then you're sadly mistaken.

Kaepernick is in his 2nd year in that system, has played some this year, and was playing in front of a home crowd, has a good running game, and a dominant defense to back him up.

Davis has a good arm and mobile, that's where the comparisons end. Unless Kurt Warner comes out of retirement and is the Kurt Warner of old, the Falcons are screwed at the backup QB regardless.

The problem is the other 52 guys. While we do have some great individuals, collectively they are a mediocre bunch of games.

Our running game is so bad that if we have a game where 30%-35% of our runs are successful, it was a good/great day for us. For most other teams, their good days running the ball is when they have twice as much as success as that.

The mental aspect of the game is not anywhere close for Davis, and there's not a chance in hell it will come before this season is out. He's still very much a one read guy that when he's going up against real NFL defenses (not the 2nd/3rd string units he was facing in.

This offense without Matt Ryan is a joke. It functions on Ryan's ability to avoid pressure, get the ball out quickly, anticipate throws, throw with accuracy, etc. None of these are skillsets Davis possess, and these are skills that take relatively speaking a LONG TIME to develop in the NFL (like 3 or 4 years). The length of time it takes before a QB is able to process info quickly and thus do all of the things that a QB is supposed to do on a given play cannot be sped up.

Behind our line that can barely keep Ryan's uni clean, Davis would be dead in the water.

Not saying McCown is any better suited, but at least with his experience you know that he understands the system. He understands what he's supposed to do on a given play, whether he actually can pull it off, is the question. Davis isn't at that point, and will only be at the point when he's ready. No amount of practice reps is going to get him ready for that this year.

And if you bench McCown, then who is going to be the first guy to slap butts when guys come off the field towards the sideline? He is definitely a rah rah guy :lol: :P

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:38 am 
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Pudge wrote:
Not saying McCown is any better suited, but at least with his experience you know that he understands the system. He understands what he's supposed to do on a given play, whether he actually can pull it off, is the question. Davis isn't at that point, and will only be at the point when he's ready. No amount of practice reps is going to get him ready for that this year.

no sir, I disagree.

His 'experience'? :rofl: :rofl: :lol:

it doesnt hurt to start getting Davis some 2nd team reps, unless you are Mrs McClown. What I have been saying, is if Ryan goes down, were screwed anyways: McClown will not get us any further. Davis might...

we will see. hopefully Davis or McClown never sees the field.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:02 am 
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Again, you're living in a pipe dream.

His understanding of the offense is very basic, and the amount of practice reps he would get isn't going to dramatically increase that understanding. Not unless you were to give him 1st team reps over several weeks. You put him on the field, and he's going to be staring down his first read. And then when his first read isn't there, his initial instinct is to tuck and run. Behind SF's line that could work. Behind ATL's line, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

If the ball isn't coming out on time vs. the backups for the Jaguars and Dolphins, it's definitely not coming out on time vs. the starters for the Saints, Giants, and Lions. And a couple dozen practice reps isn't going to change that.

Again, whether you believe that Davis > McCown is your opinion, and frankly I'm not here to challenge that. But the idea that increasing practice reps for Davis is going to improve his chances from this point on in 2012 isn't reality-based.

The Falcons backup QB spot is a clusterfudge as they say. And no amount of practice reps is going to change that. 90% of the problems/issues/flaws that this Falcon team currently has are ONLY fixable in the off-season. Backup QB is one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Again, you're living in a pipe dream.

His understanding of the offense is very basic, and the amount of practice reps he would get isn't going to dramatically increase that understanding. Not unless you were to give him 1st team reps over several weeks. You put him on the field, and he's going to be staring down his first read. And then when his first read isn't there, his initial instinct is to tuck and run. Behind SF's line that could work. Behind ATL's line, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

If the ball isn't coming out on time vs. the backups for the Jaguars and Dolphins, it's definitely not coming out on time vs. the starters for the Saints, Giants, and Lions. And a couple dozen practice reps isn't going to change that.

Again, whether you believe that Davis > McCown is your opinion, and frankly I'm not here to challenge that. But the idea that increasing practice reps for Davis is going to improve his chances from this point on in 2012 isn't reality-based.

The Falcons backup QB spot is a clusterfudge as they say. And no amount of practice reps is going to change that. 90% of the problems/issues/flaws that this Falcon team currently has are ONLY fixable in the off-season. Backup QB is one of them.



Pipe dream? :shock: I look around and see alot of starting QB's out and alot of backups starting, and in some cases 3rd stringers!

Look, Im not saying Davis is going to light it up. He could flame out just like Foles. BUt what is the harm by having him take some 1st team and 2nd team reps? OK, maybe you hurt McClown's 'feewings'. Other then that, I see no harm. Can you 'splain what the issue would be here? As it stands, the only 'experience' he is getting is scout team.

Im just suggesting preparing for a worse case scenario. If Ryan is out for a significant amount of time ( not just turftoe or a concussion) were pretty much screwed anyways. The reason I brought this up, and maybe I am imagining things: I dont recall seeing a season like this where so many starting QB's are hurt or sidelined... I guess I see your point about him staring down his receivers. But I also disagree that there's only 10% of our problems that cannot be addressed right now. Signing Plaxico and dumping Smith or Cox could have easily gotten done. Did we really need to sign some sh*tty guard off the Saints team that will never see the field?

Look, I dont want my house to burn down, but that doesn't mean I dont buy insurance. :hihi:

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Is it possible we signed the sh**ty guard from the Saints to get a feel for their playbook? Just saying? I feel like they did this to us a couple years back signing one of our cut QBs the week before they played us.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:24 pm 
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MarylandFalcon1 wrote:
Is it possible we signed the sh**ty guard from the Saints to get a feel for their playbook? Just saying? I feel like they did this to us a couple years back signing one of our cut QBs the week before they played us.



yeah that thought crossed my mind. Someone call Jack Bauer!

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:02 pm 
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fun gus wrote:
Look, Im not saying Davis is going to light it up. He could flame out just like Foles. BUt what is the harm by having him take some 1st team and 2nd team reps? OK, maybe you hurt McClown's 'feewings'. Other then that, I see no harm. Can you 'splain what the issue would be here? As it stands, the only 'experience' he is getting is scout team.

There's no harm. The Falcons are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY f**ked if Ryan gets hurt. And I'm just saying, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING the Falcons can do to change that, besides just hoping that the defense and the running game step up enough in that game to make up for it.

fun gus wrote:
But I also disagree that there's only 10% of our problems that cannot be addressed right now. Signing Plaxico and dumping Smith or Cox could have easily gotten done.

That's the 10%. But we're now approaching that point in time where signing a WR or TE won't do much because he won't get up to speed on the playbook. The other 90% such as the running game, pass rush, etc. can't get fixed during the season unless someone currently on the roster steps up.

The Falcons had a chance to make some moves at the trade deadline. But now, we are what we are.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
There's no harm. The Falcons are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY f**ked if Ryan gets hurt. And I'm just saying, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING the Falcons can do to change that, besides just hoping that the defense and the running game step up enough in that game to make up for it..



see, this is the 'rearranging the Titanic Chairs' reasoning that I was talking about. It's like if Ryan get's hurt, then we should just stop trying to be competitive. But there are things you can do just in case.

I put this out there because it just seems strange this year were seeing a glut of QB injuries. Most then normal years, wouldn't you agree?

And, I am also thinking about the standings. If we were 6-4, I might feel differently. But we are 9-1. Unless I am mistaken, if we win just one more game, then were already in the playoffs. We could lose every other game and still make it.

So if Ryan is going down for one game, maybe I see the logic in using McClown. But if it's more then that, then I would go with Double D. Why not?

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:17 pm 
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fun gus wrote:
see, this is the 'rearranging the Titanic Chairs' reasoning that I was talking about. It's like if Ryan get's hurt, then we should just stop trying to be competitive. But there are things you can do just in case.

No one says stop trying. But you gotta face reality, that your attempts aren't going to do accomplish anything. It's just a pipe dream to think that Dominique Davis is ready/capable of winning a game as a starter.

fun gus wrote:
I put this out there because it just seems strange this year were seeing a glut of QB injuries. Most then normal years, wouldn't you agree?

It doesn't seem like it's any more. It just might seem that way because you a bunch of guys hurt at the same time. But last year, you saw guys like Schaub, Cassel, Vick, Henne, McCoy, Peyton Manning, Kolb, Cutler, Bradford, and Campbell all miss time due to injuries.

fun gus wrote:
And, I am also thinking about the standings. If we were 6-4, I might feel differently. But we are 9-1.

The reason we are 9-1 and not 6-4 is because of Matt Ryan. And I mean that if you could switch 2011 Ryan with 2012 Ryan, this team would be 6-4.

If you want to play Davis over McCown, then fine. But I'm just saying if you are talking about giving Davis more reps in practice under the hopes that its' going to make him better able to help us win a game sans Ryan, I'm saying it's a pipe dream. This team is absolutely screwed if Ryan goes down. Our success this year is entirely because of Ryan, and his ability to get Roddy, Julio, and Tony playing at or near elite levels. That is our team in its entirety. The reason we've won 9 games this year is entirely because of that. And you insert any other QB into that mix, especially Davis or McCown, and that magic completely goes away. And unless that QB can keep those guys playing at a high level, then you have a Falcon team that is essentially no different than any old 2-8 team.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
[
If you want to play Davis over McCown, then fine. But I'm just saying if you are talking about giving Davis more reps in practice under the hopes that its' going to make him better able to help us win a game sans Ryan, I'm saying it's a pipe dream. This team is absolutely screwed if Ryan goes down. Our success this year is entirely because of Ryan, and his ability to get Roddy, Julio, and Tony playing at or near elite levels. That is our team in its entirety. The reason we've won 9 games this year is entirely because of that. And you insert any other QB into that mix, especially Davis or McCown, and that magic completely goes away. And unless that QB can keep those guys playing at a high level, then you have a Falcon team that is essentially no different than any old 2-8 team.


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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:44 am 
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Quote:
The reason we are 9-1 and not 6-4 is because of Matt Ryan. And I mean that if you could switch 2011 Ryan with 2012 Ryan, this team would be 6-4.

I respectfully disagree. If you replace 2012 Koetter with 2011 Mularkey, this team would be 6-4. (if not worse) I don't know why we're still having this argument... Mularkey was coaching Ryan to play a certain way. Now that Mularkey is gone, Ryan is being coached a different way, and that, plus the better play calling, is why Matt is in the running for MVP. I guarantee that if Koetter was OC last year, Ryan would have been better last year.


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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:41 am 
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Coaching/play-calling certainly has something to do with it, but play-calling isn't making Ryan better at creating when things get muddy in the pocket and not panicking. I argued that coaching would help improve Ryan's vertical passing, and it certainly has. But that was thinking that it would take him from the cellar to league average, not where he is today which is near the top of the league, where he's outproducing the likes of Rodgers, Brady, and Eli Manning in terms of deep passing.

I agree Koetter > Mularkey, and if Koetter was OC last year, Ryan would be better. But how much is debatable, and I don't think he would be as good then as he is now.

But still my point remains the same. The reason we are where we are is because of Matt Ryan and the improvements he's made. Now you or I can sit here and dissect the plethora of reasons why Ryan has improved but he is the primary catalyst to the success. Koetter isn't out there throwing the dimes.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Well, I will say that Ryan is the reason that Mike Smith is still a head coach. Ryan is the reason that people think/thought that TD is a genius. Ryan is the reason that the Falcons are the best that they have ever been. And yeah, if Ryan goes down, it's game over.


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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:02 pm 
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What a stupid thread, if all of our best players go down we will be screwed? Yeah no s***. This is true for any team, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning go down and they are screwed etc....

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:27 am 
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DaveWaz wrote:
What a stupid thread, if all of our best players go down we will be screwed? Yeah no s***. This is true for any team, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning go down and they are screwed etc....


Thank you Waz, you the man! I always liked Fun Gus, very good poster and good guy overall but seriously I have no idea what has gotten into you in two weeks. You are making the Falcons sound like the Jets.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Emmitt wrote:
DaveWaz wrote:
What a stupid thread, if all of our best players go down we will be screwed? Yeah no s***. This is true for any team, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning go down and they are screwed etc....


Thank you Waz, you the man! I always liked Fun Gus, very good poster and good guy overall but seriously I have no idea what has gotten into you in two weeks. You are making the Falcons sound like the Jets.


you guys really have to work on your reading 'comprehension'. :lol:

I posted, what FOUR times what brought me to thinking about this?:

"After watching last nights game and some of this weekends games with backup QB's playing.."

"I look around and see alot of starting QB's out and alot of backups starting, and in some cases 3rd stringers.."

"I dont recall seeing a season like this where so many starting QB's are hurt or sidelined..."

"I put this out there because it just seems strange this year were seeing a glut of QB injuries. Most then normal years, wouldn't you agree?"

Jeebus, guys, it's not like I am pulling something out of my a$$ to worry about: I'm looking around and seeing ALOT of QB's being injured. Are you guys watching other games? So I'm asking a reasonable question. Dont get your panties in a wad. :naughty:

At least Pudge understands the motive behind the question. At least he had an answer. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Ryan is the reason Smith and TD are good.Cam made Chizik coach of the year. Brady made Belichick a genius. I think this is pretty accurate if simplistic. As we say in the music biz, the tape don't lie. I think Ryan's remarkable increase in deep numbers is a multi-layered thing...Koetter, Julio, Ryan. Like CF says, "Everything counts!"

Not many teams have depth at QB...real depth. But then you see the guy in SF on MNF and realize it is possible. OTOH, how great is Alex Smith? Well, he is also increasing deep numbers. Heck, Brady was a back up and were it not for Bledsoe's injury Belichick might not be a genius.

But I gotta largely agree with Pudge here. Davis is sort of the Renfro or whatever his name was in the Glanville Era of the new century. Ryan goes down and we go down...but we go down faster with Davis. Does it matter? Maybe not.

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:25 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
Ryan is the reason Smith and TD are good.Cam made Chizik coach of the year. Brady made Belichick a genius. I think this is pretty accurate if simplistic. As we say in the music biz, the tape don't lie. I think Ryan's remarkable increase in deep numbers is a multi-layered thing...Koetter, Julio, Ryan. Like CF says, "Everything counts!"

Not many teams have depth at QB...real depth. But then you see the guy in SF on MNF and realize it is possible. OTOH, how great is Alex Smith? Well, he is also increasing deep numbers. Heck, Brady was a back up and were it not for Bledsoe's injury Belichick might not be a genius.

But I gotta largely agree with Pudge here. Davis is sort of the Renfro or whatever his name was in the Glanville Era of the new century. Ryan goes down and we go down...but we go down faster with Davis. Does it matter? Maybe not.



Look, I get it. But just 'recently' ( for old f*cks like you and me ) dont we recall '07? We 'lost' our QB. But, this wasn't something that happened 'by chance'. The 'cart' that took Dumbsh*t 7 off the field had a dog cage in it....And flashing party lights..We had 'backups' too. We just let Schaub go ( which I never blamed them for, or thought it was the 'wrong' thing) and now we were stuck with Joey.Byron, etc. I know it's hindquarterssight, but even then I recall how we had never any 'depth'. ( and dont say other teams dont have it: are y'all watching this stuff? some of these guys may become starters in thier own right! )

All I am advocating for is getting the #3 guy more reps then the #2 guy, and the reasoning behind this is alot more QB's (just my paranoid delusion here) are getting knocked out, so if you happen to have a pos OL, maaaaybe grooming the 3rd stringer a little might pay off down the road if the SHTF.

I recall saying we should be giving Byron reps when Joey was the 'main guy' after the loss of MV7. Yeah, he had 'the windup'..Then, IIRC, he came in rusty, and threw an endzone ball into the stands. Then I see him backing up the 'most durable' QB, the Rapeyrapey. 5 years later!!

Im just saying, dont wait for ish, plan for it. It seems if Ryan goes down, everyone's plan is 'oh well'. I think my plan is 'oh HELL!' :mrgreen:

BUt then again I just saved alot on my whore insurance, and Im too busy prepping the basement shelter for the upcoming Mayan Zombie apacolypse. Otherwise known as this TNF :so:

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 Post subject: Re: the real depth problem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Location: North Carolina
You make good points fun gus, and I think this is a personnel/front office issue.

I think this isn't just exclusive to Atlanta, but I think it has happened in a number of NFL cities (San Diego and Indy immediately leap to mind) in that when you have a good QB, the tendency is to have the parts around them become interchangeable. And then what happens is that over time, the level of talent can often diminish. Then you get slapped with an injury, and all of sudden you're a team that is 2-14 or 4-12 without your QB, rather than being the 7-9 team that you thought you were.

This happened in '07. I think this is happening now. In 2008, if Ryan missed time, it was no big deal because the offense/team didn't go through him. You could have thrown Redmna in there, and we could just hand it off to Turner, and the team would hardly skip a beat.

But now you cannot do that. And this is where I criticize TD again, because it's not to say that he put us in this situation, but he had ample opportunity to pull us out of it. And it may be that you don't agree with my "TD is the Devil" mentality but he certainly is very much open to criticism.

Fun gus you and I were saying last December, that we needed to get an upgrade over Redman in the offseason. We didn't, and now we're seemingly in a worse situation at backup QB. Cyril, who is TD's staunchest defender was agreeing with me in December and January that Turner needed to be gone from this team, and the Falcons did nothing, and lo and behold the Falcons running game is terrible.

And you might still believe "big picture" TD is very good at his job, but these are obvious issues that he deserves criticism for not fixing. Had he signed a QB in the off-season and that guy did not turn out to be the right fit, then that's okay. You get points for effort. If he had tried to bolster the running game with a new RB with fresh legs, but he turned out to be another T.J. Duckett, then you still get points for trying. But when you sit there and are just twiddling your thumbs, hoping that things go OK, then you are open to have people call you out.

As you like to say fun gus, hope in one hand, sh*t in the other, see which fills up quicker...

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