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 Post subject: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:02 am 
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http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7854628/osi-umenyiora-extension-new-york-giants-looking-unlikely

Before seeing we got Samuel, I saw that Umenyiora is asking for a trade. I don't know what the Giants would want in return, but probably more than the potential comp pick they would get if he were to sign elsewhere after his last year. There's also the issue of how we could work it out cap-wise. But, I see this another great opportunity to potentially make a huge improvement to this team. Samuel may make a big difference, but he will simply be chasing the ball unless we have enough firepower up front to attack the QB with. Osi, Abe, & Edwards could be a really solid rotation at DE to get that done.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:29 am 
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jagstang76 wrote:
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7854628/osi-umenyiora-extension-new-york-giants-looking-unlikely

Before seeing we got Samuel, I saw that Umenyiora is asking for a trade. I don't know what the Giants would want in return, but probably more than the potential comp pick they would get if he were to sign elsewhere after his last year. There's also the issue of how we could work it out cap-wise. But, I see this another great opportunity to potentially make a huge improvement to this team. Samuel may make a big difference, but he will simply be chasing the ball unless we have enough firepower up front to attack the QB with. Osi, Abe, & Edwards could be a really solid rotation at DE to get that done.

Thoughts?


I don't think we are going to be getting Osi for a 7th rounder. :lol: Though if we don't try, some here will be saying Blank doesn't want to spend the money and TD is happy to do nothing. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:12 am 
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We'd be dumb not to at least make a phone call. Some of these teams get desperate to jettison players they know they can't resign and might hurt chemistry (ie. Samuel). That in turns means you might pilfer them on the cheap, but Reese isn't as dumb a gm as Banner imo.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:37 am 
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Well if we deal a Day 2 pick for Osi, this team is gonna have like a 2-year window to win a championship and if not then everything is gonna get blown up.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:59 am 
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Well if we deal a Day 2 pick for Osi, this team is gonna have like a 2-year window to win a championship and if not then everything is gonna get blown up.


Been having the same thought lately, that TD in hindsight is much more of a free agent GM than drafter. It reminds me of the redskins methodology, but we're probably signing slightly better players, and prob to slightly better deals for us.

But the 2nd part of your sentence will come to roost. We've gotta be one of the older teams in the league at this point right?? Meanwhile teams like the NYG and Packers continue to reload l-term via the draft, and won't have the same issue as us more than likely.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Worth it? He'll want a lt contract immediately, how can we pay 3 DE's a good amount of money (abe, rayray, osi)?

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Two NFL sources balk at NFL Network's Jason LaCanfora's speculation that Giants DE Osi Umenyiora could be had for a third-round pick this week.
Although Umenyiora acknowledged Wednesday that there's a "chance" of a trade during the draft, the two sources maintain that nothing is "imminent" on that front. During a radio interview this week, Umenyiora stated that he's looking for a new contract in the neighborhood of four years and $40 million, between the recent deals signed by Robert Mathis (four years, $36 million) and Trent Cole (four years, $48 million).

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Osi Umenyiora made it clear Wednesday that any team trading for him would not have to extend his contract.
Expecting to have the best year of his career, Umenyiora is happy to play out the last year of his contract to hit the free agent market in 2013. Umenyiora expects trade talk to heat up over the next few days, and suggests he and the Giants have many "issues" to work through.

Hard to believe, but I guess he just wants out at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Dwight Freeney - DL - Colts According to SI.com's Peter King, the Colts "would love to get a good pick" for RE Dwight Freeney.
As King notes, however, Wednesday's Asante Samuel trade for a seventh-round pick sort of set the market for aging vets with monster base salaries. Freeney's base salary of $14.035 million is even greater than Samuel's. King seems to indicate that he doesn't expect Indianapolis to trade Freeney this weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:03 pm 
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"Pudge Wrote" Well if we deal a Day 2 pick for Osi, this team is gonna have like a 2-year window to win a championship and if not then everything is gonna get blown up.


Pudge you say stuff like this all the time and I don't understand it!! Yea he'll want a big contract but Abe will be off the books
next year; you don't pay 30 million for first round picks anymore; and all because we give up a late round pick......Turner will be off to and we'll save 7 million.

The Boos have already quieted down from the Julio Trade; Crap I say get DWIGHT Freeney for one year for a late round pick
and let him walk next year..... He wants a long contract but would prefer to play out this year's and become a free agent.....
ONLY 3.5 million +, Lets get him too and see what he's got in the tank.

I understand Thomas D. has not turned out to be your traditional BILL B. Gm. and thank god we didn't get the guy who went to K.C.but you haven't given Thomas D. a fair timetable and you've turned on him simply because he is not doing things like you would.

He wants to improve the team every year and not just the usual 6 years of drafting; we should have noticed something was
up when he got Tony G. The only guy who really complained about that is not here now!!

The moves he's made in the secondary are not long term moves but we still have some decent prospects there. He got rid of Lofton without batting an eye; I think our new D-Coordinator is putting some of these seeds in Smitties ear and then
Thomas D's ear. Their was talk of someone moving too safety.

Moving Lofton should give you some comfort; and I contend we won't start the season with Turner......All indications show
he will but I still can't see it.....

As you know their is not only one right way to get there!! There is a way more popular; but we seem to always say we
only got two years; when its just not true. I suspect next year we go back to building through the draft; but it seems Thomas D. has sidestepped the minefields of losing one first round draft pick; and one second round draft pick!!

Hopefully Ryan hits Julio A lot this year; and who knows I'm not ready to call Sidbury a flop; but this needs to be a break out year; and Biermann should be a secondary player on the line for a while. Nothing that we do makes us dead in two years IMO.

Sam Baker is going to be the surprise player if he stays healthy..... Yea I know he's never healthy so this is his last shot too.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:00 pm 
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I said what I said about possibly dealing for Osi, because if we were to give away a #3 pick for Osi (presumably the Giants wouldn't accept a #5, the next best thing we can offer), that would have meant that over the past 3 drafts, the Falcons would have had two 1sts (Spoon, Jones), one 2nd (this year's pick), and three 3rds (Peters, Dent, Mike Johnson) as they young talent they've brought in. I'm sorry, but that's not a highly successful formula for success to building a winner. EVERYBODY now knows that the best method of building winning teams is via the draft. The correlation between good drafting and wins is huge compared to the correlation between OK drafting & free agency spending and wins.

And thus over the course of 3 drafts where the Falcons had 12 premium picks (1st thru 4th rounds), they only wound up with 6 players. And what then happens if only half of those players turn into good players? You've purposefully cut your chances to improve IN HALF.

I'm not turning on him because he's doing things differently than how I would do it. He's doing things differently than how EVERYONE ELSE does it. Dimitroff is the maverick and rogue standing out by his lonesome if he continues down this path. If he succeeds (i.e. win a championship) with this formula (presuming the Falcons deal another high pick for a 30-year old veteran), then he'll be the first person ever to do so!

Tony has 1 more year left on his deal, as does McClure, Manuwai, and William Moore. The following off-season, Lofa, Matt Ryan, Turner, Babineaux, and Peters all hit the market. After that, Julio, Roddy, Asante, Abe, and Spoon are all free agents. If you were to add Osi, he would presumably play out the last year of his deal and who knows after that.

TOO MANY of this team's playmakers are 30 years old with only a year or two left before the well runs dry. It would be one thing if we were like the Steelers and these guys had been playing together for 4 or 5 years. But the interesting thing is that the Steelers are going out and doing their damnest in the draft to replace a bunch of those guys, so that there shouldn't be a huge dropoff when these older guys are gone.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:06 pm 
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And thus over the course of 3 drafts where the Falcons had 12 premium picks (1st thru 4th rounds), they only wound up with 6 players. And what then happens if only half of those players turn into good players? You've purposefully cut your chances to improve IN HALF.


And to add to what you and I already have said (which I don't know how you can come to a different conclusion)...what two teams have had the most draft picks play lately?

New England and Pittsburgh, probably the two most annually consistent teams also. NOT a coinscidence.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:45 pm 
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It doesn't much matter what Atlanta could get him for... They'd have to send a bad contract back because they burned what little cap space they had left for Samuel.

The Asante Samuel deal is about the only high-priced vet deal Atlanta could have made unless they start cutting players.

I would expect the Falcons to be quiet for the balance of the offseason. Hold onto their picks and draft for need. There might be some small deals to move up or down within a round but I don't expect anything else.

Asante Samuel was the splash move this year... Ever since Dimitroff came to town Atlanta has only made 1 flashy move each season... We just made that move (Turner, Robinson, Jones*, Samuel).

*I don't consider the Edwards deal a splashy deal.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Samuel is not high priced!!

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Pudge Ok HE'S NOT DOING IT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE; but 80% of most teams never get to a playoff that way....

I'm not advocating he continue this; its just what has come in front of him without having those draft picks. I expect him to
go back to traditional draft picks next year but I have noticed that every year he seems to get some veteran to fill in a space.

Back when (George Allen) I believe you'll remember this; the Washington Redskins under George Allen had the "over the hill gang" that went to a Super bowl; and contended a lot... Yes their was no salary cap then; but Allen would still keep a promising rookie once every 5 years....IMO if you make a good deal then you've made a good deal......

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The Over-the-Hill Gang was the George Allen-coached Washington Redskins team of the early 1970s, so named due to the large number of veteran players on the team. Many of those players also played for Allen when he coached the Los Angeles Rams from 1966-1970.

The start of the Over-the-Hill Gang was the 1971 NFL Draft. Of the Redskins first five picks that year, they only used one, deciding to trade the rest. Allen had decided to build his team with experienced players who "did not have to mold to the NFL game". One of these trades was for Billy Kilmer, a quarterback that had been playing for the New Orleans Saints. As a starter for the Redskins, Kilmer threw for 3,869 yards and 32 touchdown passes. More importantly, he led the Redskins to back-to-back playoff appearances and became the first Redskins quarterback to start a Super Bowl.

This, however, was not the most important event in the '71 Draft that led to the creation of the gang. Allen later dealt seven draft choices (including the first- and third-round picks in 1971) as well as linebacker Marlin McKeever to his former team, the Rams. In exchange, the Redskins received linebackers Jack Pardee, Myron Pottios and Maxie Baughan, defensive tackle Diron Talbert, guard John Wilbur and special teams player Jeff Jordan. These players soon became a large part of the Over-the-Hill Gang defense. The Redskins also picked up Boyd Dowler, an eleven-year veteran with the Green Bay Packers, who won five championships as a Packer. He would later pick up strong safety Richie Petitbon (again from the Rams) and defensive tackle Ron McDole from the Buffalo Bills.

The average age of starters was 31 years old. However, Allen's strategy turned the Redskins around as the team improved to a 9-4-1 record in 1971, and finished the 1972 season with an NFC-best 11-3 record. The retooled Redskins' nine victories in 1971 was the most by a Washington team in 29 years. In his seven seasons with the club, Allen and his veterans produced seven winning records, five playoff appearances, and one trip to the Super Bowl.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:49 pm 
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That George Allen thing Cyril is interesting, but as you said, it doesn't really compare favorably to now. There were only 26 teams back then, the draft was 12 rounds, and not nearly as developed a "science" as it is today, there was no salary cap, which is a hugely critical factor. But I don't really have to explain that to you.

And yes, 80% of the other teams don't make the playoffs in a given year. But only 7 teams in the league haven't made the playoffs in any of the past 3 years. The point I'm trying to make is that there is constant turnover in which teams are in the playoffs, and thus the fact that the Falcons have been in the playoffs the past four years doesn't vindicate their methods. Because the issue isn't making the playoffs, the issue is winning championships.

And this is the core issue here, because people like myself who are critical of the Falcons front office fully acknowledge that Dimitroff has done a good job to establish this team as a perennial playoff contender. But now I know I want to see this team make that next step and become a perennial championship contender.

And everybody on the opposite side of the street, including you Cyril, are saying you shouldn't be critical of TD & Co because of all of their success so far. But what those people aren't getting is that I'm not criticizing his decisions/moves from 2008-10 when he was making all of those moves that established us a perennial playoff team. But that is no longer the goal anymore. Mission Accomplished, fellas. But that's not the new mission. And so therefore, in my eyes he's very open to criticism.

All I'm saying is that if you look at just the small group of teams that have won championships or gotten really darn close, there are some universal things that forms a pretty rough blueprint for success, which is build through the draft and have measured participation in free agency.

Am I'm saying that just following the blueprint leads to automatic success? No. Obviously, if you draft, you have to draft well, and over multiple years. Not just two or three years, but five, six, and seven years. And not everybody can or will. And when you look at the past 5-10 Super Bowl winners, and probably another 20+ teams that have gotten pretty darn close, and like 95% of them followed that blueprint. So why should TD be given the benefit of the doubt if he follows the 5% model?

And for the record, I'm saying TD would be firmly on that 5% model if he was to use another premium pick on a 30+ year old veteran.

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 Post subject: Re: How bout Osi too?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:28 am 
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Wow, I love how this thread has blossomed!

I honestly agree with both Pudge/Cyril. The only reason I feel good about TD's recent work is because he's getting some key components using his strengths (i.e. free agency). I like the coaching decisions lately, and I am not that upset with the Julio deal because I feel we have a key player that will help keep this offense rolling after Roddy. Yes, we gave up a lot, but we've struck out so much in the draft that I'd rather see him make moves that secure sure-fire potential or established players. He's made several stabs (like the move to get Baker) that just reveals how insecure he is in the draft. So, I say Julio was a solid move that will make sense because he's already proven to be a dynamic player. He is also taking advantage of other teams' situations by making shrewd moves. I hope he can make another deal and get Osi (especially if he's willing to play out his contract) because it's a great way to improve this team, even just for short term, and give them a better chance of winning a championship.

Yes, they are going to have to blow things up at this rate, but as long as they can keep some core guys at the same time it should be a decent retooling rather than all-out bottom-feeding. We really do need to get better at working through the draft. Combining the two elements is the key in my opinion.


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