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 Post subject: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:35 am 
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This is why:
It took over 3 quarters for Mularkey to figure out that Baker needed help.
Our coaching staff didn't seem to understand that the game was not over with almost 2 minutes left in the game and Philly having a time out left.
Our coaching staff must not have watched that Giants game last year where the game was won on a punt return.
Is there a more conservative playbook in the NFL than ours?
If this team continues to look like it did in the 2nd and 3rd quarter of this game, heads need to roll. Heck, after witnessing our team do the victory kneel 3 times when we were going to be punting from our Red Zone with 20 seconds left on the clock, Smith's head should roll. That was just HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE coaching.

We won this game. We knocked Vick out. I should be reveling in this, but I feel sick to my stomach.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:50 am 
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Well, I am reveling in the win, but there is still plenty of ugly that needs to be addressed if we are going to have a successful season. Still I have to give our guys kudos for hanging in there and finding a way to win the game!

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:56 am 
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It was ugly but come on Rob lighten up. That was absolutely incredible to win that game. To come down ten was impressive. Peria Jerry finally had a break out game, he has a future possibly. Gonzalez was the man like I expected. Philly's middle of the field can't cover, so easy. Baker is useless, he should be benched that was pitful. Dunta wasn't good at all, maclin killed him. Grimes another game of lockdown coverage. DeSean jackson had two catches, Grimes is so good. Still lots of shaky play, but let's enjoy this. That was such a huge win. Blalock gets some kudos for springing that 61 yard to Turner. Let's smile and enjoy guys. Hayden's int shouldn't have counted but way to make an impact.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:59 am 
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Yeah, Rob, I think you gotta lighten up. I was plenty pissed myself in the 3rd quarter. But at the same time, I'm aware that a win is a win. And this team is never going to give you 4 quarters of dominance against another potentially elite team. It just doesn't happen. We're just not built that way.

So just take the W anyway you can get it and move on. If you're waiting for the Falcons to dismantle a team as thoroughly as others have dismantled us, you're going to be waiting for a very long time. I know that should be the goal, but it is not. The Falcons want to play Marty Ball and that's how it's going to be for the foreseeable future. I'd like to see that change in the future, but I'd also like to bang Salma Hayek, and that's just not in the cards baby.

So you can either accept it and take what you can get, or not accept it and literally move on.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:01 am 
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There were a lot of good points. Turner has looked much better this year than he did last year. He is putting up elite numbers at this point. The middle of our line held up pretty well today, it was Baker and Clabo that had the major breakdowns. Tony G was outstanding today. I am surprised that he's still having games like that, especially after his showing in pre-season.

I'm happy that Ryan took a few shots down the field today. They didn't really pan out, but that's ok. At least we're trying them, even against one of the best secondaries to ever take the field. Ryan looked good once he took over the play calling in the 4th. We also FINALLY made adjustments to give Baker some help which gave Ryan some time to find some people to throw to.

Several players on defense had good games. Jerry, Spoon, and Edwards made impact plays. Abe had a nice forced fumble. Hayden got a double gift, one from Vick, one from the refs.


I'm not totally unhappy with the game, but I'm REALLY getting fed up with the coaching. The team blew a double digit lead in the 3rd quarter... It was like we fell asleep at half time. The coaching staff made some woeful decisions throughout the game, the pinnacle was the victory kneel 3 times when we knew that we were leaving time on the clock... We did this with Turner and Rodgers averaging over 5 yards a carry. Why give them another chance?

Our coaching staff is INEPT. Whoever was responsible for the victory kneel is an embarrassment to the franchise.

And Pudge, I posted the above before your post... I'll take the W. But the things that I'm seeing from this coaching staff are leaving me sick to my stomach.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Turner is god awful. It's hard to criticize him too much because he is producing, but I really have no clue how he is doing it. I guess that's just good blocking from the Falcons because his burst is non-existent, he's not consistently powering through tackles by stopping his feet on contact, and he looks like he's running at about 4.65 speed. John Clay and Jonathan Dwyer could probably give him a serious run for his money.

He's got 2 carries for 114 yards, and 29 carries for 100 yards (3.44 avg). He could average 3 yards a pop for his next 90 carries, and those 2 big runs will keep his YPC above a respectable 4 yards a pop. It just seems like despite Turner having 214 yards and a 6.9 YPC at this time, there have been about 30-40 yards left on the field just by his slowness.

I know if he continues to produce there is a fat chance in Hades that he'll be gone next year, but his play so far this year reminds me of the '07 Jamal Lewis year where Lewis had 1300 yards with his first year with the Browns and on the surface had a good year, but then Lewis was basically a no show the next two years.


As for disliking this coaching staff, I've said it several times before to you Robert, I think you just have to accept it and go with the flow. The conservative nature of this coaching staff should not be a surprise to anyone. We hired Mike Smith, we hired Mike Mularkey, this is what you're going to get. I hate to use the "Love it or leave it" mantra, but I honestly think it applies here. If you cannot accept this win despite all its ugliness, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I accept your criticisms as all being pretty much valid, but sometimes I think you just have to overlook the warts and just accept things for what they are.

I guess it's easier for me because I don't expect this team to win a Super Bowl, thus I can overlook its warts. And if they do, I certainly don't expect it to be because we played quality football in September. If we win a Super Bowl this year, it's going to be because we get hot at the end of the year and make a run like other Super Bowl teams have done often in recent years.

I'm not going to give myself an ulcer simply because I can't accept the reality that we are a good team, but ultimately probably going to be an also-ran.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Hehe. I'm not giving myself an ulcer. And I know that we're not going to fire the whole coaching staff. But because I know that doesn't mean that I have to be happy with it.

And I'm not expecting a Superbowl this year either... I think that we're still in, "the process," and that's why I thought it was stupid to make the JJ trade. Guy is a stud, no doubt... But we still can't pass protect, so what's the point of JJ?


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:01 pm 
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I fully understand Clabo being worse without Dahl. I mean they were both absolute nobody guys and got a chance in training camp to fight their way to a starting role on a team in full rebuild mode. They achieved that, and together had chips on their shoulders and worked very well as a team. Clabo without Dahl just isn't the same animal.

Still, Baker is what scares me. I mean, I don't even recognize him. Is this really the same player we've had defending Ryan the past three years? What, I think this line with Baker starting game up 18 sacks Ryan's rookie year, and I don't remember Baker being horrid then. Could he have actually gotten worse with experience? At this rate, Ryan will be sacked 72 times this season...

We need a new punter... period.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
He's got 2 carries for 114 yards, and 29 carries for 100 yards (3.44 avg). He could average 3 yards a pop for his next 90 carries, and those 2 big runs will keep his YPC above a respectable 4 yards a pop. It just seems like despite Turner having 214 yards and a 6.9 YPC at this time, there have been about 30-40 yards left on the field just by his slowness.


This reminds me of the Warrick Dunn arguments. Take away the one big run, and he was average.

Don't get me wrong, he isn't the same back he was in 08 and 09, but he still has a very good burst when he decides he needs to use it and a very good 2nd/3rd gear. Turner isn't reckless anymore, if he doesn't see the hole, he covers up the football and tries not to cough it up. I think you can blame the RB coach for that.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Think you feel unsatisfied because Philly manhandled us. They were clearly the better team all game. I go by W's, but also by "how is the team playing" in order to predict future wins, and our team isn't playing well. Our WR passing game is nonexistent, and Ryan is getting hammered up the middle.

The only time Turner gets yardage is when there is a LARGE hole that any NFL runningback would get through. Julio and Roddy haven't been a force (perhaps because the interior OL).

And on defense, while we have guys stepping up, our coverage is still bad. We've allowed 300 yards passing back to back, with wide open guys, to QBs who are only decent at passing.

I hoped game 1 was an aberration, but game 2 made me feel like it's more of the norm. We're playing like a 7-9 team that got lucky with turnovers. Maybe fixing the interior OL and the secondary gelling will take care of it, but I've been disappointed thus far, and my expectations weren't for another 13-3 team...just a team like last year but a little better, with a little more ability to make the big plays. So far, we haven't seen that.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Nuccah wrote:
This reminds me of the Warrick Dunn arguments. Take away the one big run, and he was average.

Dunn wasn't average in 2005. He was very good. I don't know what was said on other boards, but I know on here the biggest complaint about him was his inability to get yards after contract, which was accurate, but the fact that his vision and lateral quicks were so good, he didn't need to get YAC because he could avoid hits to pick up every yards every now and then. But after '05, we started to see the decline. IN 2006, he was still decent, and I think that year for him compares to the sort of year that Turner is having. And as was the case with Dunn in '07, I think the wheels will completely fall off next year in 2012 for Turner, if they don't by the time this year finishes.

Speaking of RB coach, what does a RB coach do anyway? Please, someone in the know tell me. Couldn't you just put RBs in the O-line film room, and lose nothing? What is there to teach RBs? Protections, ball security? You can't teach speed, power, or vision.

Turner's burst is terrible. This is definitely the last year he is going to be a viable starting RB and that's a stretch.

Turner started the night pretty solidly, being successful on 4 of his first 9 carries (44.4%). As you may know, a success rate of 45% or above is good. 40-45% is "solid," and anything below 35% is bad. But after that point, on Turner's next 9 carries, he was successful on 1 of his carries. He finished the game 2 of 3.

I know that's not all on Turner, but every aspect of his game has been on a steady decline since 2008, and I think now we are reaching that point where he has hit rock bottom everywhere. What is next beyond this season is just a year where the wheels completely come off. Hopefully, when the time comes in a couple of months, TD is smart enough to realize this.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:56 pm 
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Wow well new year same things. Pudge still rips on Turner like usual. You know your right about not showing enough speed but when has Turner been fast since 08. Falcons used him poorly in 08, they ran the jets off him. A left tackle that doesn't let their guy get to the) in 3 seconds would help. On numerous occasions, Turner go up the middle and Cole will be there. Also consider that two very good to elite defenses have been against Turner. He has started slow every year since 08. Next week after he runs for 140, you will be praising him as usual. I've seen this show before about Turner and I can't take it serious. Jamal Lewis give me a break, that 61 yard run showed some damn good speed. He got around Page pretty well. How about that catch for 35, that was nice too. Next two weeks I expect Mike to explode and be the man like usual. Pudge you know your stuff and I agree with you on most things, but on this you went over the edge.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Quote:
"Cyril " Thought the Coaching was Great!! This was a game Pudge and most of his followers thought we would lose!!
"only followers because he has good football knowledge" not a shot at anyone. As for the three kneel downs at the end of the game, there have been many more lost fumbles trying to run the clock out than kneel downs to 35 seconds; verses a punt where the whole team knows they need to run it back all the way...


Rob you just remind me of a guy sitting behind me who was just blasting our team over everything..... This is why the regular season
is so important..... About the "most exciting" football game I've seen in a long time..... Look Philly was trying to win too....!! They went out and bought as many free agents as any team...... We kept our composure and came back and scored 14 unanswered points in the
4th quarter....... Why leave out the "good stuff" "??

We've got problems but if we have a little extra corrections and up our play by the same percentage as we did against the Bears things
will look better......

I don't exactly understand the slings at Turner......He looked pretty fast on his last big run in the 4th quarter; but I'll be the first to say if their no hole he's not going anywhere, but if there is he can still rock!!



As far as running back coaches they can continue to make sure a running back picks up the blitz before going out in the flat, and continue to work on pass catching out of the backfield; and kick butt when someone is not doing their job..... Basically you can say the same thing about the line coaches too, its not rocket science just someone to be accountable too.....

Anyway it was a great win and it was a great night, for most Falcon fans........


Ps. I believe I probably thought we'd lose too..... We took advantage of all Vick's turnovers!!

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:07 am 
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Playing on the offensive line is a very technical position, arguably the most technical positions on the field. There is obviously a need for O-line coaches because of their ability to teach/refine those techniques. What's technical about the RB position? "Here's the ball, don't get tackled!"

So Emmitt, you're saying that Michael Turner that exists today is much better than this player?:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... highlights
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... highlights

Look, I may re-watch the game and discover that our blocking was bad in the 2nd/3rd quarters, which was why Turner had a 11% success rate. But it probably wasn't. The guy has no lateral burst. When he has to change direction, he stops his feet almost cold. He's never had great lateral quickness, but if you go back and watch him in '08 and '09, he didn't have to stop his feet to maintain his balance and make cuts to maintain momentum to power through tacklers. It's why he's less productive after contact now than he was in those years. It's why all of his big runs nowadays basically come from him being virtually untouched for the first 8-10 yards of the play.

He's a shell of his former self, and don't let his 34 fantasy points or 214 rushing yards or 6.9 YPC fool you into thinking he's anything more than a below average starting NFL running back.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:20 am 
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I do catch some of his faults, but below average? I can't take that quote seriously and if you told that to anyone, they look at you like you weren't sober.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:27 am 
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I don't understand how you guys can speak so matter-of-factly about Turner this early in the season. I mean, it's true that without the big runs his yardage would look a lot different, but that fact is that that he has the big runs. His game has always been the same since he got here; Pound away and wear down the defense and then break a big one.

His speed is not that great, this is true. I get tired of watching him get ran down on those big runs, but at least he is capable of getting us the quality field position that we have come to love from him. It's better to have a running back with 200+ yards through 2 games, than and back with 70-150 yards after two games. Not to mention, our line has not been as good as we are used to, which leads me to my next point.

Our O-line scares me to say the least. Not only could they not keep Matt Ryan off the ground, but they kept breaking down on 3rd down. It was frustrating. Trent Cole owns Sam Baker. Maybe this will clear up a little more when McClure returns.

Don't be so down on Matt Bosher. Yeah, he had an 18-yard punt out of his own end zone. But the guy is a rookie and that was his first time in that situation. And I'm sure the relentlessness of the Eagles pass rush didn't help his psyche. He had way more great punts last night than he had bad ones. Give the guy some time.

Put your brown paper bags away, fellas, it's only the 2nd week.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:29 am 
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Emmitt wrote:
I do catch some of his faults, but below average? I can't take that quote seriously and if you told that to anyone, they look at you like you weren't sober.


List out the top RBs, and you'll see it's not crazy. Are there 16 RBs you'd take over him? If so, he's a below avg starter.

Turner needed to come in at 230...he's lost WAY too much lateral quickness. A Ray Rice or Lesean McCoy would have had all the big gains, plus created a few other gains of their own.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:49 am 
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I'm kinda stunned about all the negativity of last night win against the Eagles.

Go back and read what each of you said leading up to this game......Most said something to the effect "we had to be special to win"
then we score touchdowns 5 times from the red zone, Ryan throws for 4 Tds and Turner rushes for over 100 with 60 yards of it being at a critical moment as we come back and beat the Eagles in the 4th quarter......Tony G. makes an unbelievable catch!!

Now I find out all the Coaches Suck, we've got a running back that is below average; and I read every fault imagined or otherwise.....

I'm telling you guys I was there and it was damn exciting football...... When you watch hits like D. Robinson's live; or see Vick slung back so hard his helmet hits his own player and he bites part of his tongue off; you realize their playing for money; not competition!!

Perhaps as exciting a win as I've ever seen, and I feel like I've lived and died 10 times during the game...... The Eagles are good!!

On a personal note I was able to take my dad who is sick, and he acted more excited than me....so it had extra special meaning to me;
so I'm very biased about this game and sorry if I'm not looking objectively at our performance!!

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:42 am 
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Cyril wrote:
I'm kinda stunned about all the negativity of last night win against the Eagles.

Perhaps as exciting a win as I've ever seen, and I feel like I've lived and died 10 times during the game...... The Eagles are good!!

On a personal note I was able to take my dad who is sick, and he acted more excited than me....so it had extra special meaning to me;
so I'm very biased about this game and sorry if I'm not looking objectively at our performance!!


Good point. I don't think anyone's denying this, but, as a native New Yorker especially, I know I get caught up in the criticism easily.

Thanks for the reminder, and I'm glad you shared that with your father. I kinda wish you were one of my 20 or so freshmen that claim to never have had an experience significant enough to write abou . . . there I go again :lol:

I'm happy for you, and thanks for sharing that perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:11 am 
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Confess_Jesus_Now wrote:
Don't be so down on Matt Bosher. Yeah, he had an 18-yard punt out of his own end zone. But the guy is a rookie and that was his first time in that situation. And I'm sure the relentlessness of the Eagles pass rush didn't help his psyche. He had way more great punts last night than he had bad ones. Give the guy some time.

He's not just the punter, he's also the kickoff guy that needs an extra 5 yards to get a touchback when the rest of the NFL is doing it just about every kick.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Yeah, I can forgive an 18 yard punt out of the back of your endzone... well, sort of... but kicking the ball to the 1 yard line is horrid on kickoffs, and that final kick right to Jackson in the middle of the field made me want to throw up.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
He's a shell of his former self, and don't let his 34 fantasy points or 214 rushing yards or 6.9 YPC fool you into thinking he's anything more than a below average starting NFL running back.


Emmitt, don't waste your time talking Turner with Pudge. He has been against the Turner signing since day one and continues to bash him year after year. Of course Turner isn't the player he once was and Pudge relishes that. Father time and 350+ carries a year will break down anyone's body. But to say he is a below average RB is a bit much, even for the Turner-hater Pudge. I kinda chuckle when he uses stats (over and over and over again) to make his points, but when the stats say something he doesn't like, well, I guess we should just ignore them. The facts are that Turner is 6th in the NFL in rushing yards and leads the NFL with an astonishing 6.9 yards per carry.
I don't know much, but I do know that the Falcons would not have three winning seasons in a row, a playoff appearance, and nationally televised games without the 888 carries he's had in the past 3 seasons as a Falcon.


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Turner is surprising me so far. I don't know why Pudge is like, "if you take away these, he's only at 3.9." 3.9 is still respectable. 6.9 is astounding considering how slow Turner is at this point. hehe. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Cyril wrote:

Perhaps as exciting a win as I've ever seen, and I feel like I've lived and died 10 times during the game...... The Eagles are good!!

On a personal note I was able to take my dad who is sick, and he acted more excited than me....so it had extra special meaning to me;


I felt that way just watching the game on TV. And Cyril, I'm really glad you got to share this special game with your dad.

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 Post subject: Re: We won, we knocked Vick out... Why do I feel used?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:40 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Emmitt, don't waste your time talking Turner with Pudge. He has been against the Turner signing since day one and continues to bash him year after year. Of course Turner isn't the player he once was and Pudge relishes that. Father time and 350+ carries a year will break down anyone's body. But to say he is a below average RB is a bit much, even for the Turner-hater Pudge. I kinda chuckle when he uses stats (over and over and over again) to make his points, but when the stats say something he doesn't like, well, I guess we should just ignore them. The facts are that Turner is 6th in the NFL in rushing yards and leads the NFL with an astonishing 6.9 yards per carry.
I don't know much, but I do know that the Falcons would not have three winning seasons in a row, a playoff appearance, and nationally televised games without the 888 carries he's had in the past 3 seasons as a Falcon.

AJ51, you don't even know. I have backed Turner routinely on this board since 2008. But all people remember is my anti-Turner stance before the '08 season and that I think he's only a shell of himself now, and forget the 3 years in between when I was very much pro-Turner.

But fine, if people are going to peg me as a "Turner hater" so be it. I've discovered over the years that others relish in ignorance. :hand:

And once again, people make the silly mistake that just because I think Turner is on his last legs today, it is a judgment on the past 3 years of his career. Turner has been an excellent player for the Falcons. He was our MVP in 2008, he played very well in 2009 before he got hurt, and while he slowed down in 2010, he was still very valuable. But that doesn't have anything to do with the player he is today, and the player he is today is a below average starting running back. Is he still better than probably 50-60 RBs in the league today? Sure. But there are probably 20, 25, if not 30 RBs in the league today that are better than him, regardless of how many rushing yards he has.

Fred Jackson, Darren McFadden, and Ben Tate are 1-2-3 in rushing yards this year, does that mean they are elite running backs? No. Does that mean they are better than 4-5-7 in Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, and Maurice Jones-Drew? No.

Does Turner still offer value to our offense? Yes. Does he offer significantly more value than Jason Snelling at this point in their careers? No, I don't think so.

Has Turner offered significant value over Snelling the past 3 years? Absolutely. But is that the case anymore? No, I don't think so, based off what I see. Would Snelling have 214 yards, 6.9 yards per carry, and 1 TD if he had been the starter the past 2 games? Probably not.

But we're not playing fantasy football, and measuring a team's rushing success is bigger than how many yards or how high your YPC is.

I watched both the Falcons games and the Packers games so far this year, and James Starks is a better RB right now than Michael Turner.

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


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