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 Post subject: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:29 am 
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His list:
1. Saints
2. Raiders
3. Patriots
4. Bills
5. 49ers
Quote:
"There's also the possibility Vick becomes too much of a hot potato to consider.
But I doubt it. I say if he's made eligible sometime this year, he'll get signed by someone."

More details here:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... index.html

Personally my money is on the 49ers if Vick is reinstated immediately.
Singletary is an independent thinker and he's practically running the franchise right now.
Plus their GM was asked about Vick today and he left the door wide open.

If on the other hand the NFL suspends Vick for part of the season, my money is on
the Raiders to sign Vick after Russell starts out slowly. Nobody loves speed more
than Al Davis, and nobody has more speed than Vick. And nobody loves to butt
heads with NFL authority more than Al Davis. And nobody loves to give highly touted
players a 2nd chance to live up to their potential more than Al Davis. (He already won
a Super Bowl with another former first overall draft pick - Jim Plunkett.)

Should be interesting to see how this plays out and how long the Falcons hold
out hope for trading Vick. The chances of getting something in return for him
obviously depend on how many teams both want him and think other teams
are after him as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:24 pm 
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People keep talking abotu the Patriots, but I simply don't see it. They always talk about them taking on some "problem players" in the past like Randy Moss, and Corey Dillon, but Vick is not in the same league as those guys. Moss and Dillon were primarily problem players because they were guys that wanted to win and played on very bad teams. Frankly, they were really no different than a guy like Barry Sanders. You put those guys in a winning environment, and there's no more problem. Not to say Vick has no desire to win, but his issues don't have much to do with a being or not being in a competitive football environment.

Not to mention, I doubt Bob Kraft signs off on the move.

Others have suggested that the Patriots will want him so they can run the wildcat like the Dolphins, but looking at the Pats roster, they would probably just as easily run the wildcat with Welker, or 2 of the guys they drafted this year (Edelman, Tate). Not to say that any of them could run it as Vick potentially could, but I doubt the adding the wildcat to their offensive repetoire will be their primary motivation.

As others have said, it's going to take an owner with stones to make that move. And IMO, there are really only a handful of owners would be willing to buck the PR backlash to make the move at least this fall. I think at this point only Snyder, Davis, and Jerry Jones would be willing to do it.

Vick remains a very popular figure in Virginia, and if any fan base is going to probably be least antagonistic to acquiring Vick, it's probably the Redskins fan base.

The Raiders make sense also because Tom Cable is the coach, and he was with Vick in 2006 here in Atlanta. So there is some familiarity to what he brings to the table. But I don't see the Raiders adding Vick until they've exhausted their options of JaMarcus Russell and/or Jeff Garcia. Al Davis isn't known for making the most logical of football moves, but he really wants to develop JaMarcus Russell, and I think also recognizes that Garcia is the best possible insurance policy he can have. Bringing Vick into that environment doesn't make a lot of sense (at least not today).

As for the Cowboys, Jerry Jones is a wildcard. I doubt they bring him in because they've added 2 backup QBs this off-season (Kitna, McGee), so their backup QB situation is set. Wade Phillips knows Vick from his time here in Atlanta, coached him for a few games as well. It makes sense because Jerry is always looking to make a splash from headlines, but doesn't really add much to the field unless they plan to make Vick into a "slash" player.

As for the 49ers, I think Singletary woiuld be willing to do it. But you may recall taht only a few days after Singletary made those comments, the 49ers brass snuffed them out. I think ownership (at this time) is unwilling to make a move.

I could see the Saints making the move however. That's a move right up Peyton's alley.

I just think that signing Vick this fall would create an unwanted distraction (from the media) that very few teams will be interested in adding that. Now a team that is only going to win 3 or 4 games this year, might be more willing to add that just simply the media attention will make them somewhat more relevant, but for a team that is looking at the playoffs, I think that can be a drawback.

Also I don't think Vick is going to have much to offer to a team. And I don't think adding an entity like Vick is a decision that you can comfortably make in the final weeks of training camp after only a month or two of him getting back into football shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:19 pm 
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I think Vick will actually make a positive difference for a team. I think he showed that he was not a very proficient passer of the ball while here.

However, if you use him in subpackages, he can be remarkably helpful. The spread option we started to run worked phenomenally early, and would have continued, if our OC knew how to anticipate what a defense was going to do. I was amazed when D's started sending their safety around the outside of the DE. Poet and I were on the AFMB saying to each other "this is great, they're selling out the secondary, so now you just add a drop pass to the vacated area into the mix." This never happened. It was ridiculous really. Vick was never a traditional QB, and disappointed there, but Knapp was woefully underequipped to utilize someone out of the box.

Assuming he had no bad press (that's a completely different issue), a guy like Bellicheck or any other offensive mind with some wits about them, could make him an amazingly irritating 15 plays a game type guy.

I wouldn't want to pay him as the franchise, but if I were an O coordinator, and I could get him as my backup QB/slash player for 3M/yr, I'd be psyched. I'd run the wildcat (or spread option) with specifically designed passes on the backend, and essentially it's back to like it was the first few games of 06 (?), unless people are willing to give up the easy 20 yard pass to the vacated side.

Now, as I said, the PR is a different issue, and will really be what teams have to contend with. But people are claiming "he wasn't a good QB anyway, so no reason to get him." What they miss is, you're not looking necessarily for a starting QB. You're looking for a guy to be a backup and maybe give you 10 runs and 5 passes a game. For that, there's likely never been anyone better in the NFL.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:29 pm 
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Well, I think T.O was always interested in playing with Vick.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:25 pm 
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takeitdown wrote:
What they miss is, you're not looking necessarily for a starting QB. You're looking for a guy to be a backup and maybe give you 10 runs and 5 passes a game. For that, there's likely never been anyone better in the NFL.

I'd add "...assuming his skillset has not diminished in the past 2 years" to that last sentence.

But if what you say is true (and I think it is), that makes the PR issues even more significant. Because who wants the backlash for a player that even you surmise is essentially a role player.

Players with similar skillsets as Vick come along all the time: Eric Crouch, Tory Woodbury, Josh Cribbs, Matt Jones, Anthony Wright, Pat White, etc. Perhaps none of them can perform it quite to the degree that Vick can, but at least with them there is no other issues to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
takeitdown wrote:
What they miss is, you're not looking necessarily for a starting QB. You're looking for a guy to be a backup and maybe give you 10 runs and 5 passes a game. For that, there's likely never been anyone better in the NFL.

I'd add "...assuming his skillset has not diminished in the past 2 years" to that last sentence.

But if what you say is true (and I think it is), that makes the PR issues even more significant. Because who wants the backlash for a player that even you surmise is essentially a role player.

Players with similar skillsets as Vick come along all the time: Eric Crouch, Tory Woodbury, Josh Cribbs, Matt Jones, Anthony Wright, Pat White, etc. Perhaps none of them can perform it quite to the degree that Vick can, but at least with them there is no other issues to deal with.


I agree on most points, but think the way Vick can run those subsets differs dramatically from the "similarly talented." But, regardless, you've nailed the trade off you're making. The arithmetic you must do:

Is a guy who will likely bring me 15 plays a game, with a good chance of most being explosive, worth the PR damage.

I will throw in that I don't think it's worth it at all if you don't have an imaginative OC. I don't think he's worth the risk to a Knapp type OC. But, your average backup QB seems to get about 1-2m. If you think Vick can be a good change of pace if your guy goes down, can produce well on those 15 plays (imagine the wildcat if Ronnie Brown can throw the ball pretty well 50 yards down the seam) and may develop into a more everydown player you can either trade or use...it's a fair argument.

I don't think Vick ever becomes a true everydown player unless he really has changed his ways. I think he had the talent, but needed to study even more than the average QB, and instead he studied less. I don't see that having changed in prison, but it's the only way he'd have a chance to be a true QB.

Were it me, if there weren't the PR aspect, it'd be a no brainer for me to bring on the guy I could use to create mismatches, and potentially develop...for 3M. But I'd not count on the development. With the PR...tricky. The ultimate subpackage player...with demonstrations outside...


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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:22 am 
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Pudge wrote:
As for the 49ers, I think Singletary woiuld be willing to do it. But you may recall taht only a few days after Singletary made those comments, the 49ers brass snuffed them out. I think ownership (at this time) is unwilling to make a move.


The 49ers have definitely not ruled out Vick:
Quote:
His last NFL game was in 2006, and he would need to be reinstated by commissioner Roger Goodell before rejoining the league.

If that happens, one of the teams to which Vick persistently has been linked is the 49ers because they have no clear-cut starting quarterback and because they have a coach who is unafraid to bring in players with checkered pasts.

Another reason is that no 49ers official has ruled out signing Vick, and Singletary continued to leave the door ajar Thursday.

"That's something going forward-you just never know," Singletary said. "I don't want to say absolutely not, because I'm not there. But I'm certainly not going to say yes."

Vick certainly has support inside the 49ers' locker room.

"He's the reason so many people went to Virginia Tech. He's definitely the reason I went there," said receiver Josh Morgan. "That's my idol. We love him, and we talk about him and think about him all the time. We can't wait for him to get back on the field. He's always been a humble guy, with a quiet personality, but he's always helping out people and not even talking about it. I got to throw with him, to run some drills, and he's a great guy."

Return man Allen Rossum, a former teammate of Vick's in Atlanta, said that Vick's release from prison has been a hot topic among the 49ers.

http://www.mlive.com/sportsflash/index. ... ist=sports


By the way it would seem that since the Falcons still own the rights to Vick, NFL tampering rules would apply to any comments that other coaches/GMs might make about him.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:06 pm 
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From Clark Judge of CBS Sports:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11768397

Quote:
San Francisco seemed a possibility once, with 49ers coach Mike Singletary not ruling out the move, but that was before the club took smart pills and measured the public-relations backlash -- whiplash is more like it. Vick is now off the 49ers' radar.

"All I know is that he doesn't fit us," said Jed York, the team's president. "Like any player that has on-the-field issues or off-the-field issues, no matter who it is, you have to look at the total package. And I think we like the collection at our team right now, and we're not looking at anything that would disrupt what we have going on."

A quote from the man that will actually be making the decision, who BTW is not named Mike Singletary.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:14 pm 
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IMHO, right now may as well be like less than a month before the draft, all smokescreens. I don't think with him having 2 more months on his sentence, that any teams is going to show but so much interest (esp publicly). Say the 49ers stepped up now and publicly said they had some interest. Then you'd hear about Vick/49ers for the next two months straight (ala Brett Favre). Esp considering there may end up being a little competition for him, nobodies gonna show their hand now. And fwiw, I guarantee if someone, say the Patriots picked him up, you'd hear something like this...."Oh Belicheck the genius does it again, how will he utilize the weapon, what a shrewd move for the money, etc." All of a sudden he'd start getting the benefit of the doubt. In any instance, he's served his time and deserves a 2nd crack at it. Didn't Crackman Jones get about 10x chances.

I had originally thought he should come back as a WR/Kick returner, but then comes the wild cat offense last year. Considering that, really the timiing couldn't be better for Vick. Think about this, the Dolphins spent a 2nd (correct? or 3rd?) round pick on Pat White. When they already have Pennington for current, and supposively Henne for the future. Where does White fit in, esp for that high a pick?? Well obviously they're gonna keep running it with Brown, but now you've got White to add the passing dimensions to the package. Really no team that tried it last year did anything with the passing dimension minus a few red zone chucks from a RB to the back of the end zone.

If Vick is anywhere close to what he was, he's god's gift to the wildcat...he's 3x the athlete of Pat White imo. All he would need to work on is tucking the ball like tiki barber, but at 29 he doesn't need to preserve the body so much, hes needs some loot.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:30 pm 
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widetrak21 wrote:
If Vick is anywhere close to what he was, he's god's gift to the wildcat...he's 3x the athlete of Pat White imo. All he would need to work on is tucking the ball like tiki barber, but at 29 he doesn't need to preserve the body so much, hes needs some loot.

I disagree. He was 3x time the athlete of Pat White in his prime. But VIck is not in his prime. This is not a 26-year old Vick that we're talking about. We're talking about a guy that is about to turn 29 (which is the normal age for when most players start to lose their ability), coupled with the fact that Vick has played absolutely no football for 2 years.

People talk about the wildcat with Vick, but who out there besides the Dolphins are really serious about making the Wildcat a significant part of their offense like the Dolphins? No one so far. Obviously there may be teams that have things in the works, but thus far people are speculating about a wildcat team that as far as we know doesn't exist.

And I can bet you if the Dolphins had the choice of Pat White vs. Michael Vick, they would choose Pat White over him. Because White is young and impressionable, and hungry and wants to be an NFL QB. Pat White may not have the polish that you look for in a prospective NFL quarterback, but at no point should you have questioned his heart, toughness, work ethic, and intelligence during his time at West Virginia, all areas that have been serious questions about Vick in the past.

You're right, that there is really no benefit to showing your hand in May when nothing is going to happen until August at the earliest. But I think you're kidding yourself if all these teams are saying no now will all of a sudden be saying yes and clamoring for Vick come August.

I'd bet good money that all 31 other teams are certainly curious about Vick. But I highly doubt more than a few are actually that interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
I disagree. He was 3x time the athlete of Pat White in his prime.


I qualified it??...
Quote:
If Vick is anywhere close to what he was


Yeah but the other difference is that Pat White doesn't have the frame to take the pounding either. Vick's way more built than him (or at least was). Plus Vick isn't gonna end up costing a 2nd rounder either.

Hard to say if any other team will incorp the W.C. offense since it didn't debut until during the season. You saw teams dabble, but not go in head first like Miami. Now with a whole offseason, thats a diff story. I think thats why you may hear the Saints mentioned with SPeyton, or NE with a Belicheck. That fact that NFL contracts aren't guaranteed doesn't hurt someone giving him a shot either.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Not going to predict where Vick will land but IMHO, he will be reinstated if not this year, difinitley in 2010.

Money talks and Vick="butts in the seats". Vick is probably a better QB (even with his atrocious passing skills) than half the starting QBs in the NFL. No way the owners will let a player that can and will put those butts in the seats and sell merchandise stay out of the league. Remember, the owners, own the NFL and the Comish works for them. They own teams mainly to make money and Vick will be a cash cow for some team. If Ray Lewis could get back into the league after being involved in multiple homicides, how can Vick be denied a paycheck for killing some dogs? Most lawyers would love to represent Vick in a civil suit against the league on that basis. I like dogs but lets get real.

Sure he's going to get the hecklers and PETA and 'tree huggers' and all the other crazies out there but that won't last forever. If he can ignite those idiots that pledge undying loyalty to their no matter what, they will be running to buy his new jersey after the first TD.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Sometimes it really appears that some people just came out of their cave and didn't get the full jest of what has transpired the past few years. Why must we continually rehash the same crap over and over again to clarify the issue???? Vick did much more than "just kill some dogs"..he was involved in a felony conspiracy, which also involved gambling. Ray Lewis was absolved of all charges. One can't compare the two cases.

I happen to be one of the tree huggers, and Dog huggers of whom you speak. Yet I still don't see any reason why Vick won't be reinstated, but he is going to have to convince the commish first. And guess what John. If the Commish said Vick will not be reinstated until 2035, there isn't a lawyer in the world that could do anything about it. Unlike you John, who says he "likes dogs", I have a much different feeling towards them. Call me crazy, but what Vick did goes far beyond "killing some dogs". What he did is indicative of a serious problem. The man still needs serious help. I hope he gets it. But I have yet to see any serious remorse.

Almost two years have passed since his staged press conference. Nothing in the way of any further personal statements or actions have taken place that would suggest any changes. He is really upset his money/status/job is gone, but that is about it. The numerous chances he has had to bond with the organizations he is embattled with have dried up. He retreats to his ivory tower, blowing his chance to make another statement professing his desire to mend the trampled fences. While behind the scenes, the legions of huggers demand justice for a Felon. I really would like to see a rehabilitated Vick, a guy who makes his number one cause correcting his scared image into a guy who the public can embrace. But I haven't seen any indication of that. Not through the trial. Not through his time in prison. Not through the bankruptcy hearings where he continued to try to manipulate the funds.

The bottom line Vick has serious personality issues that he must address. ANY team that is willing to take on the baggage that is Vick better hope they are ready to deal with that decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:12 pm 
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Quote:
Almost two years have passed since his staged press conference. Nothing in the way of any further personal statements or actions have taken place that would suggest any changes.


I think what you have there to some degree is what Jamie Dukes of NFL network said recently, basically that Vick wasn't capable of handling the media. He's not well spoken, not quick witted, so really it prob was in his best interest to get his stuff straight and stay out of the lime light for a while. No media contact basically, plus really how much talking are you gonna do from prison after your whole life was shattered?

However, at some point he's gonna have to be sincere, but if he does that then will anyone really care? American's love comebacks. People are acting like the Peta angle is more severe than say other crimes, while all are inappropriate for these famous athletes. I'm not seeing where he should be punished more than say... Crackman Jones, steroids in baseball, Kobe, etc., all become less glaring with time.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:08 pm 
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John O wrote:
Vick is probably a better QB (even with his atrocious passing skills) than half the starting QBs in the NFL.

A statement like that does make sense...until you actually really consider it.

Yes, 2006 Vick was better than half of the current starters in the league, but I think you need to check that if you're talking about 2009 Vick. At best, Vick is probably better than no more than half a dozen starters in the league.

Those starters would be Shaun Hill, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, and Kellen Clemens. Maybe, just maybe Sage Rosenfels and Daunte Culpepper as well, but I can guarantee you there's no chance that the Vikings and Lions are interested in "upgrading" their QB situations.

I really doubt that Michael Vick's contribution to any team strictly as far as QBing goes will be beyond what any team could get from Anthony Wright or Tony Banks (both of whom are free agents).

I agree with BB, in that I think Vick's primary goal at this point is to make money, not win football games. I think it's no different than Ricky Williams, who came back in order to chip away at the debt he owed the Dolphins. Is Ricky still a capable running back? Yes, but just an average backup at this point. And when he left he was at least on par with a mid-level starting RB in the league.

To me, I expect a similar drop-off for Vick. IMO, when he left (in 2006), he was on par with a mid-level starting QB. When he comes back, he'll only be a mid-level backup QB. At this point, I don't think you could poll NFL people and they could say with convicition that as far as a backup QB goes, Vick is any better an option than Troy Smith or Seneca Wallace.

Vick lacks the drive and competitive edge wanted in a QB. That's perfectly fine if he's sitting the bench. But nobody in this league wants a backup QB that can't throw. Because a backup QB's primary job is to manage the game. That's something that Vick has shown an inability to do, and I wouldn't start assuming that's a skill or ability he'll start to learn now.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:21 pm 
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Let me play devil's advocate Pudge on Vick. You mentioned that nobody in the league wants a backup that can't throw. A few teams probably will take a chance on Vick.Jerry Jones loves the media and is always looking for a gate attraction. He signed Pacman Jones who didn't work out,signed Terrell Owens and could sign Vick maybe not has a Qb but a slash type of player. Another thing to look at is teams will probably think Vick hasn't had good coaching or the right system. The WCO offense under Knapp wasn't the right offense for Vick however a simplified offense like Reeve's had could work .Then again defenses might know how to beat that and disquise coverages since Vick's early days.

If Vick has changed and is willing to work with a QB coach maybe he can be an average passer. Also there are many(pro supporters) that believe Vick didn't have a good team around him give him that and he'll be alot better. I am only playing devil's advocate not that I care who signs Vick. Before he was given everything and remember he made millions even before he stepped into the NFL by signing the rookie contract. Now he is at the bottom and no one is giving him anything.He'll have to prove and earn his chance but I think there will be a team that takes a chance on him and the rest is up to Vick.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:15 pm 
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You're absolutely right. It would be foolish of me to try and predict what 31 other teams might do. If I could do that, then I would be the best mock drafter ever.

But I think people serious about making football decisions won't sign Vick. I really think there is a better chance that Vick isn't playing with someone this fall than that he is.

If a team does sign Vick, more than likely I would expect that team to be a team like:

A) That is essentially run by their owner and all their "football people" are just yes men looking for a sexy headline like the Redskins, Raiders, and Cowboys
B) A team that lacks a involved owner and a GM with a football background, and thus most personnel decisions are made by a coach who is so confident (borderline cocky) in his coaching abilities that he can "fix" Vick at this point in his career. A good example would be the Saints
C) A team that has a black head coach who will view Vick's journey as a microcosm of the racial injustices in this country, and in his introductory press conference will describe Vick as a "young black man who has..." That's where the 49ers come in.

I don't think anywhere in that equation are you going to find a team trying to sign Vick because he "makes our football team better."

Because I think those people realize that:

A) If you sign him in August, all the media is going to want to talk about is Vick. That's going to create a distraction for the rest of the team. It's going to become the Michael Vick show all camp long.

B) Because of his limited passing skills, he's not going to be a significant addition to your team during the season as a backup QB. He's not going to be "game-ready" in the way that a guy like Vinny Testaverde (even at his current age) can be if you pick him up after a QB has been injured.

C) Even as a slash player, there's no telling whether or not he'd actually be a better option than what many teams already have on the roster. He's never played WR. I mean in that sense, you'd be better off signing Marcus for that role rather than Michael.

Among the teams that are supposedly possible destinations for VIck, almost all of them already have players that already fit the niche Vick is expected to fill.

The Cowboys have Isaiah Stanback, the Dolphins have Pat White, the Pats have Wes Welker and Julian Edelman, the Bills have Roscoe Parrish, the 49ers have Michael Robinson, the Seahawks have T.J. Duckett, etc.

Now most come back and say none of those players can do what Vick does as well as Vick. And I'd argue, yes that was the case 3 years ago. Not so sure about today. Especially when you consider all of those players know (or will know) their teams' playbooks and systems a lot better than Vick, have actually been tackled at some point in the last 2 years (and thus more likely to be physically ready for the rigors of the NFL), and carry almost no off-field baggage that Vick has.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:13 pm 
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I think the swing has gone too far in the opposite direction. Those that liked Vick seemed like they thought he came from heaven, now from what I'm reading he can't do much? If Vick is hungry I agree with John O' that a Vick not distracted and planning to use his remaining years wisely might really surprise.

If he could play the game with no dedication just think what he might do giving 100%? No one knows what his thoughts are but I don't think Vick is the only NFL player that needs therapy yesterday... I pretty much agree he could best help those teams with poor records but it would be interesting to see what happens if he went with the Cowboys.
(That's where I think he's landing,) crap Jerry already has his "Hard Knocks" show and I was surprised he didn't fire Wade last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:28 pm 
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There is nothing out there except a few orchestrated meetings to suggest Vick has made any inroads what-so-ever. People who are suggesting that he is "dedicated" are just following the legions. There is nothing to base that on. However I have 8 years of proof in the pudding to suggest otherwise. Keep on pushing the propaganda.At least the dogs appear to be making progress. That says a lot right there concerning the range of development.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:57 pm 
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I'll bite... :wink:

First, TJ Duckett as a player with 'Vick Like' WC attributes? Please mail me some of that.

Honestly, this is all moot as Goodell hasn't tagged on his suspension. I don't think Mike can sell his remorse enough to let Goodell let him slide on lying to him, so that probably means at least a 4 week suspension...And it may be even more. That being said, he would not be available after the season starts, so the best he can hope for is a late minute signing for 'depth', maybe as ST, but not even as a 'backup' or WC QB.

However, while he's missed 2 years of NFL, he has also missed out on 2 years of pounding, too. He would not be the 'ordinary' 29 year old QB. If he spent his time working out, puttin on weight and doing what little he could do while in lockup, his physique would not resemble that of the average 29 year old QB.

After the season starts, and folks are into it, adding a 3rd string QB even as notorious as Vick would not bring out the wackos too much, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
However, while he's missed 2 years of NFL, he has also missed out on 2 years of pounding, too. He would not be the 'ordinary' 29 year old QB. If he spent his time working out, puttin on weight and doing what little he could do while in lockup, his physique would not resemble that of the average 29 year old QB.


This is a good point as well, and plus he was more than a little freakier to begin with. Whether is just money (of course), or a little redemption too (for his sake), he should be ready to make or break one way or another.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:43 pm 
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T.J. Duckett was an All-State QB in high school. If you need a player to play in the wild cat and be somewhat a threat to throw the ball. I mean that's what we're talking about. A guy that can run, but also be able to throw a football competently. Although obviously if Knapp & Mora want to use the wildcat, I'd suspect Seneca Wallace would get first dibs.

Vick was already slowing down when he left Atlanta. He didn't have the same speed and burst at 26. I doubt it's gotten any better.

I believe in second chances, but at the same time I don't see why any team would really want Vick...this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:48 am 
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Pudge wrote:
T.J. Duckett was an All-State QB in high school. If you need a player to play in the wild cat and be somewhat a threat to throw the ball. I mean that's what we're talking about. A guy that can run, but also be able to throw a football competently. Although obviously if Knapp & Mora want to use the wildcat, I'd suspect Seneca Wallace would get first dibs..


TJ was an 'All Consensus" in a Prep school where he played 3 positions, because that's all they had. Even the implication that that lunchbox could toss the ball in any NFL scheme is ridiculous. Especially in such a WC role. Pudge, youre gonna have to do better then that. If your 'point' is that TJ is somehow better then even Vick in that role, I have to say you are nuts...

Nice try, though :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:50 am 
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Is he better than Vick? No. But can he fill the same niche? Absolutely.

My point is this, most people that are "talking up" Vick and his comeback are talking up the fact of how great a fit in the wildcat he will be. And if Vick is as good as those people say he is today, then they are absolutely right.

But at the same time, almost every team in the league already has a player on their roster that would be a pretty darn good player in the wildcat, including a guy like T.J. Duckett, who IMO would probably be only a step down from Ronnie Brown if used properly.

Coupling that with the fact that by not signing Vick, none of these teams will have to spend any more $$$ on his contract, won't have to hire extra security personnel to deal with the picket signs gathered outside their stadiums and practice facilities, won't have the answer the same question a billion times each and every day for the coming months, and won't have to turn on the TV to hear some other know-it-all talking head critiquing their decision and thus the caliber of human beings their organization presents, then I personally don't see any upside to signing Vick...this year.

And still I'm having a hard time believing that so many teams will begin adopting the Wildcat left and right this year. I heard a stat in the lead up to the draft that the prototypical wildcat team, the Miami Dolphins, only used the formation on 5% of the total offensive plays in 2007.

Even if a team took that and doubled it, we're talking about what amounts to being 5 or 6 plays a game. So the allure of the "Ultimate Wildcat player" to me is not all that big to me. Maybe I'm just being too pragmatic.

Maybe if you could prove to me that the alternatives I named couldn't be productive in the formation, I might buy into it more.

To me the risk/reward thing is askew. You might say there is very little risk considering a team will only be paying him around $700K. All the baggage that Vick's presence brings to the table makes it a riskier decision. This is not like signing your typical "reclamation project" like the 49ers picking up Jimmy Williams this past January. Due to the media scrutiny that comes with adding Vick to your roster, you better be darn sure he's going to pay big dividends, otherwise heads might roll. There better be firm congruity throughout that organization or when it comes time to renegotiate a contract, this "little misfire" might blow up in someone's face.

widetrak21 wrote:
However, at some point he's gonna have to be sincere, but if he does that then will anyone really care? American's love comebacks. People are acting like the Peta angle is more severe than say other crimes, while all are inappropriate for these famous athletes. I'm not seeing where he should be punished more than say... Crackman Jones, steroids in baseball, Kobe, etc., all become less glaring with time.

The disconnect I'm hearing is the belief that not letting Vick back into the NFL is "punishing him further." Playing in the league is a gift and a privilege. There are thousands of guys that spent half of their lives working their butt off to get into the league, got 1 chance to prove they belong and because they ran a 4.62 40 instead of a 4.45 at their pro day or whatever they never got that chance. And we're punishing Vick further by saying to him, "Hey Mike you were given a free ride to a school that rejects thousands of other kids, which you squandered, and afterwards you earned some $80 million, which you squandered, were given multiple opportunities to come clean about felonious activiites, which you squandered, so we're going to pass on letting you back into the league because we got the odd feeling that you might squander that too."

Look, I'm all about helping ex-cons. If we spent half the time, money, and effort on figuring out ways how to keep guys out of prison as we do in figuring out new ways and laws to put them in, then this country would be a whole lot safer and better if you ask me.

It'd be interesting to see just how sincere and remorseful Vick is if he wasn't millions of $$$ in the hole.

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 Post subject: Re: Peter King: 5 Places Vick Might Land
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:41 am 
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Pudge wrote:
Is he better than Vick? No. But can he fill the same niche? Absolutely.

My point is this, most people that are "talking up" Vick and his comeback are talking up the fact of how great a fit in the wildcat he will be. And if Vick is as good as those people say he is today, then they are absolutely right.

But at the same time, almost every team in the league already has a player on their roster that would be a pretty darn good player in the wildcat, including a guy like T.J. Duckett, who IMO would probably be only a step down from Ronnie Brown if used properly.

Coupling that with the fact that by not signing Vick, none of these teams will have to spend any more $$$ on his contract, won't have to hire extra security personnel to deal with the picket signs gathered outside their stadiums and practice facilities, won't have the answer the same question a billion times each and every day for the coming months, and won't have to turn on the TV to hear some other know-it-all talking head critiquing their decision and thus the caliber of human beings their organization presents, then I personally don't see any upside to signing Vick...this year.

And still I'm having a hard time believing that so many teams will begin adopting the Wildcat left and right this year. I heard a stat in the lead up to the draft that the prototypical wildcat team, the Miami Dolphins, only used the formation on 5% of the total offensive plays in 2007.

Even if a team took that and doubled it, we're talking about what amounts to being 5 or 6 plays a game. So the allure of the "Ultimate Wildcat player" to me is not all that big to me. Maybe I'm just being too pragmatic.

Maybe if you could prove to me that the alternatives I named couldn't be productive in the formation, I might buy into it more.

To me the risk/reward thing is askew. You might say there is very little risk considering a team will only be paying him around $700K. All the baggage that Vick's presence brings to the table makes it a riskier decision. This is not like signing your typical "reclamation project" like the 49ers picking up Jimmy Williams this past January. Due to the media scrutiny that comes with adding Vick to your roster, you better be darn sure he's going to pay big dividends, otherwise heads might roll. There better be firm congruity throughout that organization or when it comes time to renegotiate a contract, this "little misfire" might blow up in someone's face.

widetrak21 wrote:
However, at some point he's gonna have to be sincere, but if he does that then will anyone really care? American's love comebacks. People are acting like the Peta angle is more severe than say other crimes, while all are inappropriate for these famous athletes. I'm not seeing where he should be punished more than say... Crackman Jones, steroids in baseball, Kobe, etc., all become less glaring with time.

The disconnect I'm hearing is the belief that not letting Vick back into the NFL is "punishing him further." Playing in the league is a gift and a privilege. There are thousands of guys that spent half of their lives working their butt off to get into the league, got 1 chance to prove they belong and because they ran a 4.62 40 instead of a 4.45 at their pro day or whatever they never got that chance. And we're punishing Vick further by saying to him, "Hey Mike you were given a free ride to a school that rejects thousands of other kids, which you squandered, and afterwards you earned some $80 million, which you squandered, were given multiple opportunities to come clean about felonious activiites, which you squandered, so we're going to pass on letting you back into the league because we got the odd feeling that you might squander that too."

Look, I'm all about helping ex-cons. If we spent half the time, money, and effort on figuring out ways how to keep guys out of prison as we do in figuring out new ways and laws to put them in, then this country would be a whole lot safer and better if you ask me.

It'd be interesting to see just how sincere and remorseful Vick is if he wasn't millions of $$$ in the hole.



I understand. What your saying isn' that TJ can fill that particular role as well as Vick, but more that TJ in that role doesn't come with all the 'baggage' that Vick would. I agree.

However, as a guy that worked with the HSUS and had knowledge of Vick's dogfighting activities well before any of this broke, I have to disagree with the notion that PETA is automatically going to show up if Vick returns. There are ways to take PETA out. If Vick were to go on a national program ( dog whisperer ) then do a PR campaign with HSUS, and weep a little on Oprah's couch, and talked face to face with the higher up's in the PETA organization, that all goes away. Personally, PETA does do some good things, but the negative press they get for going after ridiculous stuff often damages thier efforts. PETA and thier 'protestors' are crazy, not stupid. There's a big difference there~ and a nice check made out to PETA will get them off your lawn. :wink:

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