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 Post subject: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:01 pm 
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TUSCALOOSA — Former Alabama football player D.J. Fluker and four other SEC players were implicated Wednesday in receiving extra benefits while still in college, according to Yahoo! Sports.

The reports, based on financial records and text messages of former Alabama player Luther Davis, said benefits came from various sources, including sports agents.

A second Yahoo! report named another former Alabama player, Mark Barron, in the same situation. He was referenced in the text messages about agents trying to recoup $8,000 from him.

Cash, hotel stays, furniture and flights among other items were transacted between Davis and Fluker for the agents.

Other former players implicated are Tennessee’s Tyler Bray and Maurice Couch, and Mississippi State’s Fletcher Cox and Chad Bumphis.

If true, these allegations are NCAA violations that could impact Alabama in the loss of wins in games Fluker played. Fluker is now in the NFL with the San Diego Chargers.

“We have been aware of some of the allegations in today’s story and our compliance department was looking into this situation prior to being notified that this story was actually going to be published,” Alabama athletic director Bill Battle said in released statement. “Our review is ongoing. We diligently educate our student-athletes on maintaining compliance with NCAA rules, and will continue to do so.”

Agents involved were named as Andy Simms, Peter Schaffer and John Phillips.

Fluker posted a random Tweet in January after his eligibility was up with the Crimson Tide: “Yea I took $ n college so wat. I did wat i had to do. Agents was tryin to pimp me so I pimped them. Cast da 1st stone.”

The Tweet was quickly taken down and then Fluker’s Twitter page was disabled. His representatives said his account was hacked.

Football coach Nick Saban said it’s an administrative situation that will be handled appropriately, and that he had not read the article since it came out when he was at practice.

“We’ve done a lot investigating about a lot of things,” Saban said. “Every time someone writes something about our program, we investigate it and do the best we can. There’s nobody in this organization who doesn’t want to do anything that’s not above board. That’s not what our program is built on.”

Saban said Alabama’s compliance office educates players to stay away from this situation on a regular basis.

“I’ll say from the administrative standpoint, from the compliance standpoint, we have people here who do a fantastic job,” Saban said. “I know we have one of the best agent education programs in terms of what we do to help our players make good decisions and choices about what they do and what they don’t do when it comes to agents. And I have full confidence in our leadership that we’ll do whatever we need to do to handle the situation appropriately and I know we will.”

This is a similar situation as to what happened with Southern California running back Reggie Bush when the 2005 Heisman Trophy winner accepted gifts from agents while in college.

USC was forced to vacate wins, a national championship, was banned from the postseason for two years and lost 30 scholarships over three years.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:43 pm 
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A successful college football program cheats? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:06 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Johnny Manziel: The Great White Hope

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Johnny Manziel: The Great White Hope

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point?

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:55 am 
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I think the point is that Manziel has broken the rules and not been penalized to the extent that other players, many of whom were black, were. I don't know if it's true but I think my interpretation is right on.

By the way, college football sucks compared to the NFL< the rules are horrible and so is the way the seat teams.... just sayin

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:28 am 
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It bothers me that the minute some kid from Texas that comes from oil money can't make a buck off his autograph, the public outcry for injustice of the NCAA profiting off players becomes overwhelming. But a kid from a blue-collar town in Western PA wants to trade his fame for some tattoos, he's a thug and a menace to the game.

Pryor served a 5-game suspension stemming from his Ohio State "incident" coming into the NFL. Do you think there's a chance that Johnny Manziel gets suspended coming into the NFL? Hell no.

Is that because Manziel is white and Pryor is black? No. But it is because of how either player is perceived. And that perception of them is influenced by their skin color. Yes, I know that's controversial, but from my perspective it's very true. Just because you might be more forgiving of Johnny Football's "transgressions" than you were/are of Terrelle Pryor's doesn't make you a racist. It just makes you an American living in 2013.

This is 2013, the year of Trayvon Martin, Paula Deen, controversial cereal ads, and Miss America pageants.

It bothers me that in some circles, Johnny Football is already and will be labeled/considered a hero and pioneer of change. Rosa Parks as some see it. It just smacks to me of the attitude of, as long as the NCAA is handcuffing blacks everything is all well and good, but the minute they get in between a white man and his money, they gots to go!!

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:16 am 
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Pudge wrote:
It bothers me that the minute some kid from Texas that comes from oil money can't make a buck off his autograph, the public outcry for injustice of the NCAA profiting off players becomes overwhelming. But a kid from a blue-collar town in Western PA wants to trade his fame for some tattoos, he's a thug and a menace to the game.

Pryor served a 5-game suspension stemming from his Ohio State "incident" coming into the NFL. Do you think there's a chance that Johnny Manziel gets suspended coming into the NFL? Hell no.

Is that because Manziel is white and Pryor is black? No. But it is because of how either player is perceived. And that perception of them is influenced by their skin color. Yes, I know that's controversial, but from my perspective it's very true. Just because you might be more forgiving of Johnny Football's "transgressions" than you were/are of Terrelle Pryor's doesn't make you a racist. It just makes you an American living in 2013.

This is 2013, the year of Trayvon Martin, Paula Deen, controversial cereal ads, and Miss America pageants.

It bothers me that in some circles, Johnny Football is already and will be labeled/considered a hero and pioneer of change. Rosa Parks as some see it. It just smacks to me of the attitude of, as long as the NCAA is handcuffing blacks everything is all well and good, but the minute they get in between a white man and his money, they gots to go!!



great points, Pudge. I agree with you that there is a definite double standard involved here: no doubt. The hypocrisy of the NCAA is staggering. And, from my personal perspective, the feeling around SEC land is Johnny Football is rather unlikeable, and not just because of his play...Sure he is adored in Texas, but alot of people thinks he's a douche.

I may be wrong, but I thought Pryor's issue was that there was always a kind of disconnect between him and the coach and fans..I can't 'place' it, but my neice has been enrolled there since 11 and I seem to recall chatting with my older brother ( who is 2 steps left as a hippee ) that he was a very good player that produced on the field, but wasn't the atypical 'rah-rah' midwestern college QB...the kind that would stick to himself and his tight group of friends, and was kind of 'cold' with his relationship with his coach..But in context to JOhhny Football, he got screwed..

I also think that while some of the 'perception' of Manziel is due to 'hype', his winning the Heissman in his freshman year, and taking down Bama did more to 'help' the NCAA become hypocrites then whether or not his family had $$. Would it make it any less hypocritical if a 'poor white guy' got special treatment? Honestly, do you think that his moms and dads bank account was the reason he only got a half a game penalty? How does that work? I dont think it has to do much about money, more about marketing the product. I think all college athlete's should get paid above the tuition, though.

good points, tho.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:06 pm 
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No fun gus, his parents money doesn't really matter.

Just that I think the kids (black, white, or brown) that don't come from means deserve a bit more sympathy when we're talking about the temptation to break the rules and take $$$.

Cam Newton's dad asked for $180K from MSU to send his son there. They balked, and he wound up at Auburn. No intelligent person thinks Auburn didn't pay something to get Cam there. But the NCAA dismissed it because he was a high profile player on his way to a Nat'l Title game. They couldn't let that hang over the final month of the season. It was the same with Johnny Football this past summer with his suspension. That had nothing to do with his skin color.

But everything to do with the ineptitude of the NCAA, the biggest joke in America. All these scandals are not because of some NCAA probe, it's because some agent, runner, hanger on, or player snitched, squealed, or said something they shouldn't have. Then the NCAA's ignorant little head pops up and says, "Oh wait, is somebody cheating? Let's launch an investigation!"

And the schools just have to say, "Oh no, NCAA, we'll self-impose some sanctions and it'll be A-OK. Just have a seat, sip this lemonade and relax." And the NCAA does that and as far as they are concerned, they handled it. When they do launch investigations, it takes them 3 years to conclude anything (see Reggie Bush). Most of the time, they just say f*** it, like they did with Newton & Manziel, and did with the Freeh Report at PSU.

Pryor got suspended 5 games because he opted instead of taking his 5 game suspension from the NCAA he would just leave OSU and enter the supplemental draft. Roger Goodell didn't want that precedent to be set that ineligible players could use the NFL as a "get out of jail free" card. ANd it was aided by the entire state of Ohio hating him at that point, and thus it was easy to drop the hammer. Was that because he's black? No. But it was easy for people to accept his thuggishness, aloofness, etc. because of his skin color.

Will the NFL do any investigation into Johnny Football to see if the NCAA got it wrong? Teams will, but not the league. Is that because he's white? No. But all signs suggest that Johnny Football is also a huge douche as you said, a bit aloof, and the same sort of things that other players get villified for constantly. But you have this segment of people that are very quick to defend the kid and excuse his immaturity, etc.

And it just appears to me that since Johnny Manziel is a rich white kid from the right side of the tracks he's a victim in all this to many people. Meanwhile Terrelle Pryor and similar players because of the way they look and where they come from, it's much easier for people to assume that they are perpetrators.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
No fun gus, his parents money doesn't really matter.

Just that I think the kids (black, white, or brown) that don't come from means deserve a bit more sympathy when we're talking about the temptation to break the rules and take $$$.

Cam Newton's dad asked for $180K from MSU to send his son there. They balked, and he wound up at Auburn. No intelligent person thinks Auburn didn't pay something to get Cam there. But the NCAA dismissed it because he was a high profile player on his way to a Nat'l Title game. They couldn't let that hang over the final month of the season. It was the same with Johnny Football this past summer with his suspension. That had nothing to do with his skin color.

But everything to do with the ineptitude of the NCAA, the biggest joke in America. All these scandals are not because of some NCAA probe, it's because some agent, runner, hanger on, or player snitched, squealed, or said something they shouldn't have. Then the NCAA's ignorant little head pops up and says, "Oh wait, is somebody cheating? Let's launch an investigation!"

And the schools just have to say, "Oh no, NCAA, we'll self-impose some sanctions and it'll be A-OK. Just have a seat, sip this lemonade and relax." And the NCAA does that and as far as they are concerned, they handled it. When they do launch investigations, it takes them 3 years to conclude anything (see Reggie Bush). Most of the time, they just say f*** it, like they did with Newton & Manziel, and did with the Freeh Report at PSU.

Pryor got suspended 5 games because he opted instead of taking his 5 game suspension from the NCAA he would just leave OSU and enter the supplemental draft. Roger Goodell didn't want that precedent to be set that ineligible players could use the NFL as a "get out of jail free" card. ANd it was aided by the entire state of Ohio hating him at that point, and thus it was easy to drop the hammer. Was that because he's black? No. But it was easy for people to accept his thuggishness, aloofness, etc. because of his skin color.

Will the NFL do any investigation into Johnny Football to see if the NCAA got it wrong? Teams will, but not the league. Is that because he's white? No. But all signs suggest that Johnny Football is also a huge douche as you said, a bit aloof, and the same sort of things that other players get villified for constantly. But you have this segment of people that are very quick to defend the kid and excuse his immaturity, etc.

And it just appears to me that since Johnny Manziel is a rich white kid from the right side of the tracks he's a victim in all this to many people. Meanwhile Terrelle Pryor and similar players because of the way they look and where they come from, it's much easier for people to assume that they are perpetrators.



yeah, I see what you are saying. there is a different standard for JM. It is clearly wrong.

One thing I will take differently" Johnny M IS a victim in one sense: he has agreed to a situation where his college and the NCAA can license and sell his image for profit, but he cannot. This goes for all the guys....Poor and Rich alike. People aren't saying 'oh, because he is rich he should not have the opportunity to make some side $$'..In fact , quite the opposite.

I just want to point out the way wealth envy plays into social situations like this. A kid with a trust fund still wants to make some side $$. It is wrong. But. IMO, it is not any 'wronger' then a poor guy doing it. It falls under the old 'is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family' analogy. BUt lets be real: Cammy or Terrell or Johnny, or Arron or AJ: these college QB's arent in that situations. They aren't 'destitute' by any means..What the NCAA does abut it is wrong, but I dont hold JM to any higher standard of dumbassery just because mom and pops have loot. Even rich douchebags do stupid things.

Also, I find that using the 'poverty=crime forgiveness' thing is troubling. Making a point about the NCAA being corrupt is fine and good, but even poor people don't have to break the rules just because they are poor. Not trying to defend JM, but I am certain he just didn't get all that talent naturally. That is a result of hard work. Now, maybe he went to better schools, and had better coaching, and a better environment, in the end he still had to bust his ass to get where he is. It is a better thing to view this not as some rich white kid getting away with something that another poorer black kid didn't, it should be that some white kid is getting a hand up while a black guy who basically did the same thing ( but for tattoos? really?cmon) got a smackdown. Does this make sense?

Not to derail this thread, but allow me to discuss this thing my wife and I went round and round on last week. There is Julie Chen, who is married to Les Moonves, owner of Viacom ( CBS). She recently came out and said that 20 years ago, as a cub TV reporter in Dayton, Ohio ( WTF is wrong with Ohio?) and her boss at the time and a big time agent told her she had to get plastic surgery.


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"He said, 'I cannot represent you unless you get plastic surgery to make your eyes look bigger,' " she relayed. "He then whips out a list of plastic surgeons who have done this surgery."

After discussing her options with her family, Chen ultimately decided to follow through with the procedure.

"After I had that done, the ball did roll for me," the 43-year-old acknowledged. "I struggle with, 'Wow, did I give in to the man and do this?' "


This kinda stuff drives me nuts. On one hand, you got a woman with self esteem issues blaming a personal decision on being 'forced' to by 'the man'. I think it's awful, personally and kinda shameful.

But, my wife is more pragmatic and said 'well, she could have kept her old face and stayed in Dayton. But now she's married to one of the most powerful men in media, so it obviously worked for her.'

I might be a little more pissed if I was an asian woman. I may have one trapped inside of me :ninja:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:46 pm 
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The NCAA is more concerned with money and publicity than fairness? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:50 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
The NCAA is more concerned with money and publicity than fairness? :shock:

:shock:

fun gus wrote:
yeah, I see what you are saying. there is a different standard for JM. It is clearly wrong.

One thing I will take differently" Johnny M IS a victim in one sense: he has agreed to a situation where his college and the NCAA can license and sell his image for profit, but he cannot. This goes for all the guys....Poor and Rich alike. People aren't saying 'oh, because he is rich he should not have the opportunity to make some side $$'..In fact , quite the opposite.

I just want to point out the way wealth envy plays into social situations like this. A kid with a trust fund still wants to make some side $$. It is wrong. But. IMO, it is not any 'wronger' then a poor guy doing it. It falls under the old 'is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family' analogy. BUt lets be real: Cammy or Terrell or Johnny, or Arron or AJ: these college QB's arent in that situations. They aren't 'destitute' by any means..What the NCAA does abut it is wrong, but I dont hold JM to any higher standard of dumbassery just because mom and pops have loot. Even rich douchebags do stupid things.

Also, I find that using the 'poverty=crime forgiveness' thing is troubling. Making a point about the NCAA being corrupt is fine and good, but even poor people don't have to break the rules just because they are poor. Not trying to defend JM, but I am certain he just didn't get all that talent naturally. That is a result of hard work. Now, maybe he went to better schools, and had better coaching, and a better environment, in the end he still had to bust his ass to get where he is. It is a better thing to view this not as some rich white kid getting away with something that another poorer black kid didn't, it should be that some white kid is getting a hand up while a black guy who basically did the same thing ( but for tattoos? really?cmon) got a smackdown. Does this make sense?

I know what you're saying. And I won't sit here and say it's fair of me to blame Johnny Manziel for many of the things I'm upset about. It's not his fault that he was born to his family which had money, or you have idiots out there comparing him to Rosa Parks, or that there may be a group of people out there that are subconsciously swayed by skin color to give him the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't give to people of a different skin color.

All Johnny Football can control is whether he plays good football, and whether he breaks or follows the rules.

And of the people that I am pissed off at that may or may not actually exist that may be 2,000 strong or 2,000,000 strong, but none of whom besides this Rosa Parks woman (Jen Floyd Engel) I can definitely say, "Yes you, you're the person I'm pissed off at." But I can't do that, so basically Manziel is the "symbol" that represents them, and thus he bears the majority of the brunt of my anger and frustration.

It's not necessarily poverty=crime forgiveness. I believe if you break a rule/law you should be punished. But like say back in feudal times, if you kill the king's deer because your family hasn't eaten in a week and that venison could feed them the next month, I'm not going to be as harsh on you as say someone who killed the king's deer just because he prefers venison to beef, and has had little shortage of the latter for the past month.

It's an extreme analogy because it's a matter of life/death for one, and more of a luxury for another, and certainly doesn't apply in concern to Pryor/Manziel. It's not to say one is forgiven, as both should be punished. But i'm not going to that upset over a 19-yo kid that has never had more than $1,000 in their bank account being tempted by $7,500 payout to sign some autographs versus some other 19-yo kid who has never had less than $5,000 in his doing the same thing. Both should be punished for the crime, but the motivations for one committing the crime is perfectly understandable and much more relatable than the motivations of the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Honestly, Pudge, you're just being racist. Sorry, I don't know what else to call it. I've felt for a long time that the college game is totally farcical and in putting the recent Time cover up had not considered who was on it. In the interior story which, miraculously enough, I had happened to read (Who reads Time magazine any more?) there were analogies as to player worth and what they should be paid in relation to what they brought into the school. Among them was Tre Mason who currently plays for Auburn as well as a couple other SEC players and a few inferior conference members (that's conference-ism). Seems like Mason's salary would have been approx $400k. BTW, he played great against LSU in a losing effort.

But since we are going to play the race game and the money card and strip the hypocrisy and veneer away why not go all the way and follow it all the way down the narrow rat hole? If college football is a multi-billion dollar business--and it is--then is it inappropriate or even unwise for the owners of the business to cater it to their customer base? It is different in places, I imagine, but a typical football crowd at AU is 90% white and 10% other except on the field where the table flips though probably not quite as extremely. So, let's assume everyone is racist and want to see people from their tribe on the field and are steadily counting colors. So, we have JM playing QB and, dirty bastard, he's even stealing the "black QB's" game--running around, ad libbing, show boating ("shouting") and, dammit, winning. He's the Eminem of college football! Whatever happened to the Matt Ryans of the world, sir? Regardless...isn't this exactly who the NCAA should be "protecting" just like they "protected" Cam when he was destroying record books and heading to a NC? How could they not? That's who their customers want to see....right?

Now, somebody smarter than me can tell you what the Latin phrase for this type of reasoning is...get a fact (JM punished less than Pryor) and transfer this into a theory and indictment (JM punished less because he is white/rich and this matters because the NCAA/NFL are run by and largely supported by rich white folks). And then there is another Latin phrase where you find the most absurd comment offered (JM/Parks) and attach some greater significance to it ("Most Bama fans are just like Lee Harvey Updyke") and assume this is commonly held by your theoretical "opposition."

All of the above is pretty absurd though there may be small grains of truth peppering the BS. Interesting to me is that you infer that JM is getting off easy or beloved in the court of public opinion. I've perceived it to be the other way around, actually, though folks cannot get past that he is a superb and entertaining football player. He's mainly been described as an entitled and insufferable brat and has, IMO, done a pretty good job living up to the moniker. For the record, I thought the deal with Pryor was ridiculous at the time and have used it countless times before JM ever took a college snap as an example of what is wrong with college football....Saban, Goodell and Blank and their various organizations rake in millions while some kid who doesn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out gets crucified for getting a free mattress, tattoo, etc. There was a kid at Clemson a few years back whose father died in FL and the school nor anyone else were allowed to give him money for transportation to get back to the funeral and years before this one of the infractions CU was indicted for was giving a recruit a hat and a sweatshirt when the HC probably made a fortune on the side for signing on with the clothing manufacturers.

It is what it is. The minute you begin sorting people by skin color you're being a racist--period. Whether you are a bigot or not is kind of another matter but it gets pretty hard to be one and not the other...a conundrum, no doubt. I'm not sure what they call it when you sort people by their bank accounts but it is full on open season these days so long as you don't use racial or sexual orientation epithets in your crucifixion of them. If anybody could watch Cam's ascent and have the audacity to suggest that somehow JM is getting off easy they must have a shinier halo than me. The system is beyond corrupt and has been since before it was even integrated. The only difference now is the stakes are so much higher. Is it fair some people are rich, smart, athletic and some aren't? There's no such thing as a fair fight. Man--and pseudo-men--cannot live on bread alone...they need pizza, beer, gas money, etc. But where does it stop without turning into the NFL, Jr.....which it really already is? The shift is on. The NCAA monopoly empire is beginning to show fissures. What monetary system supplants the so called plantation system--where millionaire's sons play QB? What if they actually made the guys who played be real students who had to pass the same academic standards as real students? Would the NFL be doomed? Would the Ruben Fosters of the world who used to roam Auburn High Schools halls all day when he wasn't sleeping in class, was picked up and released to his coaches by the APD several times and who after signing with Bama was selling red and white tennis shoes and hats in the projects here be a thing of the past? God forbid....trickle down economics strewn asunder?

I've lived almost my whole life in the shadow of football factories and in the Deep South where racist attitudes are probably more engrained and above board than elsewhere and my view is people--everybody--do what they do because they can. I'm not a conspiracy guy. That takes too much cooperation with too many people. Racism isn't going anywhere because there is just too much money and power to be had on all sides by perpetuating it but as a bit of a free market guy I think the money issues will ultimately be worked out. Too many people smell guano and smell it strong.

Wow....that's a Pudge-worthy post and I didn't even say, "Look." :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:36 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
It is what it is. The minute you begin sorting people by skin color you're being a racist--period.

I'm sorry but I disagree.

From the wikipedia:

Racism, also sometimes called racialism, is generally defined as actions, practices, or beliefs that reflect a worldview according to which members of a race share a set of characteristic traits, abilities, or qualities, such as personality, intellect, morality, or other cultural behavioral characteristics and which means that races can be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to others

It may be semantics, but there's a difference between being "racial" and "racist."

Racist is saying blacks don't play QB because they aren't smart enough.
Racial is saying blacks don't play QB because of their athleticism has them playing other positions early in their football development.

Racist is saying that blacks are inherently more athletic than whites.
Racial is saying that blacks tend to play more "athleticism-based" sports based on socio-economic issues that date back to slavery.


I know that one of the reasons why the "pay for play" has been a hot button issue over the past few months is because Johnny Manziel is the most high-profile collegiate athlete and a Heisman trophy winner. It would be silly of me to argue that this issue has been raised to the forefront simply because of his skin color.

But I also perceive that there is much more of the pro-pay attitude where many more casual college football fans and non-college football fans are in favor of paying players. And that IMO is a relatively new development as opposed to a few years ago when Terrelle Pryor was in a similar predicament. I think there was a significant amount of people that were for paying college players even back then in 2011. But my perception is that "movement" has picked up some steam this past summer in this post Johnny Football AutographGate world we live in.

That perception could be false, and I certainly don't have anything beyond maybe a few pieces of circumstantial evidence and the voices in my head that support that perception.

And I think that groundswell in this movement towards paying athletes is being buoyed by a lot of white people that are casual CFB fans or not at all. Fox News, the View, all the stuff like that on the periphery of college spots now have opinions on this when in previous years they probably wouldn't have given 2 s***ts about it. And I believe that had this involved Cam Newton, RG3, Mark Ingram, Dennis Dixon, Terrelle Pryor, Troy Smith, etc you wouldn't see as strong a movement. In 2010, Reggie Bush got stripped of his Heisman for taking money. I don't recall people saying then that this was a travesty that Reggie Bush couldn't make money. The reaction then was much more negative IIRC. Instead, Reggie Bush was "tainted." IMO, the opposite is true now with Manziel, and in some circles is seen as a martyr that is going to lead the fight against the NCAA's evil oppression (yes, hyperbole I know, but you get the drift).

Is this caused by race? No. But is race influencing things? Yes, I absolutely believe that. And won't apologize for that opinion.

And frankly, had this happened in any other year besides 2013, I might not have cared. But as I mentioned above, in a year where so many things have been thrown at me that has forced me to have reevaluate how I view race relations in this country, and it means I might be a bit more sensitive to these things. Oversensitive? Certainly. But I'm not going to apologize for that either.

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:29 pm 
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It is semantics and really all that is just sort of dancing around the same thing. I'm not asking you to apologize for being a "racist" in much the same way I don't ask Roddy White to apologize for being a "homophobe." People are entitled to their opinions and have the right to be wrong. In all honesty, it had never occurred to me that the pay for play agenda was especially more prevalent now than ever or that JM was the reason. This article could have easily come out with Cam Newton as the focus and cover boy for Time and it would have been thought of similarly...I think. Just like you, I am a prisoner of the view from the seats I occupy. We all are. As a side note, I used a very similar expression as this (prisoner of our circumstances) when discussing something that was unrelated to race and a friend of mine who is black said, "After 400 years of slavery I don't like to think of myself as a prisoner of anything." So, we get into games of semantics and hyperbole and why bother with the actual point or the fact that he is not 400 years old or was ever a slave and that it was merely an expression like "prisoner of love"? There's this horrible bell that cannot be unrung and its reverberations can be manipulated to serve whatever purpose they seem to help serve whether they are related or not. But what can I say? My ancestors owned slaves so I'm part of the problem, right? So, how can anyone ever have a constructive or "fair" discussion of it?

I think your view that JM is especially beloved is off the mark also. Coincidentally I read an article today--maybe CBSsportsline--that you would have loved because it gave a statistical break down as to the number of people who viewed him favorably now relative to last winter and it was under 50% as opposed to 89% or so then. Do I like to see a white guy succeed in pro sports (this includes college which is pro)? Sure. I also like seeing right handers hit better, guys with Southern accents say something intelligent and guys who play Gibson Les Pauls like me sound good. It's kind of natural. I also get a kick out of seeing guys like Ichiro do well. Is it some over arching desire to see it? Certainly not. Do I cry that they aren't given an even chance? No. And, as to Pryor, I would say that his HC took a pretty fearsome blow as a result of it all as well and--not unlike Nixon, Petrino or Paterno--I think it was the cover up that made it worse for them.

As to the climate of the year's news stories such as T. Martin, well, I think you are on to something but, again, from where you sit. It was immediately all about his race and not about other issues such as armed citizenry and municipalities trying to get by on the cheap by allowing this sort of thing. Had he been some tattoo laden white kid who behaved identically I fully expect a similar thing would have happened and that doesn't make it right or any less appalling. And I don't think you would have seen the national outcry. If I am not mistaken a white kid was shot dead by a police officer in Mobile (?). He was completely naked and acting "eratically" outside of a police station. No special prosecutor, wrongful death suit dismissed by court, cop was black....I'm not sure I see a huge difference. Is it different? Sure. But I don't recall race ever being mentioned by anyone in this case.

Anyway, I kind of hate these discussions but they are the bread and butter of American discourse, it seems and are morbidly fascinating. I am fully confident you are not a hateful person and I hope your re-evaluating of your views does not make you such. I can tell you that there is a huge block of white folks who just aren't listening any more in a kind of boy who cried wolf reaction. Raw, unfiltered racism is pretty taboo today but just like child porn it still exists and always will and some people will never accept homosexuality as normal or whatever. I guess it is that line where freedom ends and righteousness begins that is always so troublesome. It is very hard to stay poison free when scabs are so irresistible to pick. As you say, it is your right to be over sensitive if you want or sensitive or perceptive or whatever you want to call it. Please excuse the expression but we are all prisoners of our own minds. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:03 pm 
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The more I think about it, the more I think my opinion on this is heavily influenced by that Jen Floyd Engel piece about Manziel being like Rosa Parks.

It's just very insulting to me that she would compare Manziel to Parks. I like to believe I have a very non-judgmental and forgiving demeanor (at least more so than your average person), but that right there would drive me to choke a bitch.

It got 2,000 shares on Facebook. And how many of those were people saying, "Can you believe this BS?" Perhaps most. But how many were, "I agree 100% with this article" or "I don't really buy the Rosa Parks analogy, but she's right Johnny Football is an avenue for change!"

And like Floyd Engel, I'm sure many of them 2 years ago were like "F*** Terrelle Pryor!" And I'm wondering what in the past 2 years changed that would "enlighten" them that this was a problem that needs solving. And I'm betting consciously or subconsciously it has to do with the lightening of skin tone. Much easier for them to sympathize/empathize with some "poor" college kid that is trying to make some side money in the unfair NCAA system so he can get him some rims.

Wait a sec, rims? Are we sure Johnny Manziel is white? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Roll Tide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:55 pm 
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To be fair, I have not read her piece and am not intimately familiar with the ins and outs of Manziel's case or Pryor's. That is, I didn't study them and the reactions and all the back and forth because, as a good friend of mine used to say, the more you stir a pile of crap the more it stinks. It is not unlike politics and its coverage. I listen to the barking heads on the left and right who seem to dominate the airwaves and I think, "What happened to all the reasonable people in the middle of the road. I hardly know anyone this extreme." You realize after a while it is all marketing. This goes for race baiting as well. In some cases it is for market dollars as in cans of beer or razor blades and in others it is in gov't grants or power vacumes that need occupants but when it is all said and done there are winners and losers of some sort. Very little altruism in these arenas. OTOH, I have pretty good faith in the basic goodness of individuals. We are all drawn to our tribes for maybe validation or comfort but it really is neither here nor there. We are all way more similar than different.

I really don't get too teary eyed for any athletes at these levels. They are a mixed bag like anyone else but most have led lives of entitlement on one level or another since they were pretty young. I've seen grown men fawn over 10 year old Little League pitchers like they were Nolan Ryan. OTOH, some of these people really come from pretty harsh backgrounds and, as with the rest of society, a disproportionate number seem to black. Why this is the case is open to conjecture. Anyway, I'm all about getting some money to these kids and ending the hypocrisy of college sports. It's just gross, really. :lol:

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