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 Post subject: Cornerback a bigger need than most think?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:23 pm 
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I'm just looking at the issues our secondary is having, and I'm scratching my head. Should cornerback be a relative high priority this off-season? How can we fix these woes in the secondary?

Beasley, Mathis, Rossum, and Carpenter are UFAs, while McCadam is a RFA. What shoudl the Falcons do with these guys in the off-season? Personally, I think Rossum should be brought back, Mathis too to play nickel corner, and Beasley should be signed and moved to FS. They can bring Carpenter back if they want, I like Carpenter, but he's not an upgrade over Hall.

I do think that if we had a better safety alongside Scott, things would be much better. But I'm not sold on Webster as a long-term starter, as I'm sure I've mentioned many times before. He's injury prone, and I don't think he's much when he's healthy. He's an overpaid stopgap cornerback IMO, and the cornerback position will continue to be a relative weakness as long as he's a starter.

So I know that the team has many more pressing issues, particularly at RB, OL, DE, S, and LB to address in the draft, but if there's a quality CB there in Round 2 or 3 or so, should the Falcons pull the trigger. An example would be Will Poole dropping to Round 4 this past April, all the way to pick #102. The Falcons could have had him instead of Demorrio in Round 4 (and I don't regret the team's decision) and I'm thinking that if that occurs again, then can the Falcons "risk" going after a lesser need position like CB? After all, I think cornerback is going to become a relatively high need within 2 or so years since the team will probably realize by then that Webster is overpaid, and we have a bunch of old vets on the bench, so we need to add some youth and speed there as well.

Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Do not pass up quality talent
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:31 am 
Pudge,your right the secondary looks bad and I was hoping for alot more from them.Today I believe we played man to man which shows us that only DHall can cover and he got burned quite a bit.Our pass rush when it doesn't perform really shows our weakness in the def backfield.The thing about the draft is when you get a player that slides you take a chance on that player if he is real talented.Rarely have I seen that happen with the falcon's especially at corner.Corners are real hard to find and I am going to need to study how many good ones are in this draft.You sure can't get them in free agency it cost an arm and leg for them.I wish there was a way to get Carlos Rogers of Auburn but because we have critical needs on off line despite the gibbs strategy of taking lower round picks to make them quality I really believe that we go off tackle in round 1 or 2.I think round 1 because talent at off tackle in this upcoming draft is thinn.

If it comes down to a pass rusher like Matt Roth or a tackle in Jammal Brown,Jonathan Scott or Marcus Mcneil I am going to have a tough time which one to get.Brady Smith has played well but remember shaffer did then we cut whitfield and know we know he just doesn't cut it.We have to protect Vick so I think the choice is going to be off line and hopefully free agency get some off linemen also.

Lets face it we have alot of problems and not enough talent and draft picks.I would love a safety that can make bone jarring hits but when all else fails get the player that will make the most impact to fill a need.Getting back to what you were saying if a corner slides to 3rd or 4th Mckay better take him.We did good last year in getting talent but I think we are 2 drafts away from building a solid core of young players on the falcon's.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:24 pm 
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Well I don't really see us going OT that early in the draft. Just looking at the recent drafts, and looking at the players that are considered to be the "prototypical" Gibbs-type OTs, I would say we will probably go OT in Round 3 or 4 at the earliest. Here are where teh Gibbs-type OTs went in recent drafts with heights and weights in ():

2004: Adrian Jones, 4th/#132, to Jets (6-5/296)
2004: Jake Scott, 5th/#141, to Colts (6-5/281)
2004: Marko Cavka, 6th/#178, to Jets (6-7/294)

2003: Wade Smith, 3rd/#78, to Dolphins (6-4/294)
2003: Lance Nimmo, 4th/#130, to Bucs (6-5/303)
2003: Makoa Freitas, 6th/#208, to Colts (6-4/307)
2003: Tim Provost, 6th/#209, to Dolphins (6-5/299)

2002: Jeff Hatch, 3rd/#78, to Giants (6-6/296)
2002: Matt Hill, 5th/#171, to Seahawks (6-5/298)
2002: Tyson Walter, 6th/#179, to Cowboys (6-4/300)
2002: Joaquin Gonzalez, 7th/#227, to Browns (6-4/290)
2002: Kevin Shaffer, 7th/#245, to Falcons (6-5/290)
2002: Kyle Kosier, 7th/#249, to 49ers (6-5/293)

2001: Kenyatta Walker, 1st/#14, to Bucs (6-5/311)
2001: Mathias Nkwenti, 4th/#111, to Steelers (6-4/293)
2001: Bernard Robertson, 5th/#138, to Bears (6-3/305)
2001: Shawn Draper, 5th/#156, to Dolphins (6-3/300)
2001: Dennis Norman, 7th/#222, to Seahawks (6-4/305)

As you can tell, only 3 players that I feel are/were good fits for Gibbs at OT were taken on the first day. For the most part, these are players that are rarely taken in the Top 100 picks, usually because they are seen as too small at OT, and most teams would move them inside, but as you probably know, most NFL teams prefer the massive 330-pound guards to the ones that are only in the 290-300 range, and that's why a lot of these guys fall into Rounds 4, 5, 6, and 7.

So basically my thinking is that we're probably not going to go OT until Round 3 at the earliest, just based on recent draft trends. Which I think puts us in a good position to draft other positions such as DB and DL in the first 2 or so rounds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:30 pm 
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And you might be wondering what types of OTs I'm calling "Gibbs-like." Well the main things I'm looking at are size and athleticism. He likes the smaller guys with a lot of athleticism. Which sometimes means that his guys played TE earlier in their collegiate careers (e.g. Adrian Jones and Matt Lepsis). At OT, Gibbs likes smaller guys, but that doesn't mean he will only target guys under 300, typically a Gibbs-type OT may approach 315. If he has the athleticism to make up for it, it's okay.

Other things you look for:

1. Mobility
2. Mean Streak
3. Intelligence
4. Versatility/Experience to play more than 1 position

If any player has 4 of these 6 requirements, then he's probably a likely target for Gibbs.

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 Post subject: Following the Gibbs approach
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:04 am 
If we end up drafting these type of offensive linemen then I hope Vick can survive until these players get some experience.I did an analysis of the top 10 passing teams 9 being the top and the falcon's to compare there drafting philosphy's when it comes to drafting offensive linemen for the current players and starters.Sixty percent draft left tackles and left guards in the 1st and 2nd round.

1st 2nd 3rd 4th
Philly RG,LT RT
Denver RT RG LG
Indy LT RT
Green Bay LG,LT C
Minnesota LT RT
New England LT
Pittsburgh C,LG LT
San Diego LG RG,LT
Jets LG C RT LT
Atlanta RT LG




I consider Weiner a second round pick even though picked up as free agent.You see pittsburgh,jets,philly,san diego,even denver building there lines with draft choices 1-4 rounds.Only New England,and Indy with 9 QB sacks this year don't build thru the draft with high picks.So to each his own but I am trying to say the top passing teams do build there lines with round 1-4 .

If Gibbs philosphy works all the more better that way we can build other parts of the team butif it doesn't we may lose vick since our pass blocking won't protect him.Guess will have to hope Gibbs style works.

I will start looking at some of these so called Gibbs type offensive linemen.I feel he didn't have muh to work with this year and should be interesting to see what linemen falcon's will focus on later in draft.


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 Post subject: Darn this website messed up my chart
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:05 am 
Sorry after looking at what this board did to my spreadsheet format it doesn't make sense wish this board could accept excel files!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:04 am 
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Well sorry about the board disappointed you. :P

And I know this is the rhetoric we've been hearing for the past seemingly 7 years, but I think the line will be better next year because remember this was their first year in the blocking scheme. That doesn't mean we should ignore the line, but I think we need a complete overhaul. Could we upgrade at a lot of positions? Yes, I don't really think anybody on the unit is a out and out keeper.

If I'm McKay, this is my thinking headed into the off-season:

1) I'm going to sign a top-tier OG. I think the LG spot is the weakest spot on the line. If possible, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get Mike Wahle from Green Bay. If not him, then Rick DeMulling is Option #2. I want someone that has played on a good line and bring some winning attitude to our unit. I know Gibbs is going to be tempted to go after Ben Hamilton and Cooper Carlisle, from Denver, but since both guys are "garbage" that's just wasting money.

2) I'm going to try and draft a quality OT, that can come in and learn for a year behind Shaffer/Weiner and then push for a starting job in 2006.

It's good to remind yourself that this line won't go from bad to great in 1 year, or maybe even 2 years. It's going to be a continued process for Gibbs to come in and get the right players that fit his scheme and can excel there.

Despite the success this team has had this year, we are not on the same level as the "elite" teams are like teh Eagles, Steelers, and Patriots, and maybe even the Colts, Jets, and Chargers. With exception of the Colts, all those teams really play well on both sides of the ball. This team does not, at least not on a consistent level. So because of this, we have to keep in mind that its going to take some time before all the pieces are in place.

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 Post subject: Found some off tackles maybe Gibbs types
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:36 am 
After reviewing the off tackles that may be Gibb's type offensive linemen I found the following players:
Height Wt
1.Wesley Britt 6-7 290
2.Khalif Barnes 6-5 305


Pretty much all the other offensive linemen at tackle weigh more than 310 pounds if Gibbs sticks to smaller linemen.The above 2 players are athletic,fast and have a mean streak.The off tackle from Syracuse will probably go in 1st or high 2nd untypical of a player drafted for Gibbs.Pudge,what other linemen would you consider Gibb's type of linemen in college.I got my resources from the sporting news and maybe there are some other players I need to know about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:03 pm 
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Here's some names:

Jammal Brown, OT, Oklahoma (6-5/300)
Evan Mathis, OT, Alabama (6-5/295)
Nick Kaczur, OT, Toledo (6-4/300)

From what I've been hearing, Brown would be a good fit at RT for Gibbs scheme. Britt and Barnes could play LT, as with Kaczur, and it seems like all those guys are 1st day picks. I'd say Brown is a 1st rounder. Britt and Kaczur are looking like 2nd rounders and Barnes a 3rd rounder. Mathis is another name to remember as a possible 4th rounder. They are talking about him at OG, which is common for Gibbs-style OTs, since they are seen as "too small" to play tackle in the NFL.

From what I hear Barnes really has a mean streak. He'll be a guy to watch.

Also two underclassmen to watch are:

Boise St's Daryn Colledge and UVA's D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Ferguson is said to be a sure-fire 1st rounder, while Colledge is high on most boards, but because he's only about 285 pounds he won't go probably until Round 3. Personally, I thought Colledge would had 4th round value entering this year, which is rare for me to consider sophomores/juniors to have such high value.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:28 pm 
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Concerning the secondary....

I definately think we need to make some changes here. I don't think Shabazz makes next years team nor do I think does McCadam. Both do well enough on special teams but are a liability at the position. I believe re-signing Carpenter and Beasley as a safety would be big improvements. I would let C. Hall play during running situations and Carpenter during passing situations. This, of course, assumes Carpenter is recovered from his injury.

I think our #1 prioriety in free agency is to lock down a young, vet coverage corner w/speed. Someone that can play nickel but also play on the outside. I like Mathis enough as a nickel but he is getting older and imo a liability on the outside. I would let him walk via free agency as I believe we can get someone better.


Quote:
From what I hear Barnes really has a mean streak. He'll be a guy to watch.
This is the tackle I am hoping we are able to pick. Definately a guy to watch!

Special note - Imo I do not think we will be able to fix both the defense and o-line in one season.[quote


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 Post subject: Cover corners even young ones cost alot
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:18 am 
I remember last year when the falcon's wanted a cover corner the price was just ridculous so that is why D Hall made sense.I doubt one will be available at a decent price.Off line probably guard since it has more quality than tackle is where I go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:57 am 
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thescout wrote:
I remember last year when the falcon's wanted a cover corner the price was just ridculous so that is why D Hall made sense


I agree. If the Falcons want someone that can immediately step in and play the position well, then they will have to give up a lot to do so. We discussed the potential of trading for Phil Buchanon, but we all pretty much agreed that only parting ways with a 2nd round pick would be close to a steal. Any top free agent signing would probably have to cost just as much if not more than what we paid for Jason Webster.

DenimJacket wrote:
I definately think we need to make some changes here. I don't think Shabazz makes next years team nor do I think does McCadam. Both do well enough on special teams but are a liability at the position. I believe re-signing Carpenter and Beasley as a safety would be big improvements. I would let C. Hall play during running situations and Carpenter during passing situations. This, of course, assumes Carpenter is recovered from his injury.


I agree. Shabazz and McCadam are mostly special teams guys, and it looks like Etric Pruitt will be in the same boat. I would like Beasley to return as well at safety as well. But I think although I do like Carpenter, we can afford to let him or Beasley walk. Considering both are more pass-oriented safeties, there is no need for both to be on the roster. I think Hall will be entering his last year as a Falcon. I think the Falcons should be in the market for a tough run-stopping safety, and then move Scott to FS, where I think he's a better fit. A guy like Donovan Darius or Kenoy Kennedy would be great fits, but a bit pricey. That's why I think the Falcons may just wait and use a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a safety in the draft.

DenimJacket wrote:
Special note - Imo I do not think we will be able to fix both the defense and o-line in one season.


I agree. I don't think our O-line woes would be eliminated even if we got a top notch OT in the draft and a quality OG in free agency (which is what I'm hoping for). But I think if we can make one big addition in either the draft or FA, then it will be a big step in the right direction. I still think that this line is at least 2 years away from being one that we can take pride in.

And the defense is a continual process. Basically it took 3 years for McKay to accumulate talent in Tampa to assemble that Bucs defense we know today. And although the D played very well this year, I think they overachieved, and if players aren't continued to be added next off-season, it will regress similar to what we saw with the D from 2002 to 2003. I figure considering the holes we have at DE, LB, and in the secondary, we are at least another 2 years away from having a defense that can be considered dominating.

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 Post subject: Carlos Rogers would you be mad if falcons took him
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:43 am 
Just curious Carlos Rogers has impressed me everytime I have seen him play and the need for corner is great.Webster won't be around for only a few more years and would give the falcon's probably 2 of the best corners if they live up to there potential.There is some talk over at the roost.com about carlos rogers so I thought I would bring his name up.If Pollack is gone and if the falcon's are not high on Matt roth,also following Gibbs selecting linemen later in draft,plus questionable safeties (is Davis a linebacker or safety,Nicholson of oklahoma didn't fair well vs USC) etc etc would a corner be a surprise pick and would you be upset if the corner was Carlos Rogers?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:38 pm 
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From what i saw of Nicholson last nite, he seemed like a quality safety, just not an impact guy that was deserved a 1st round grade. But if the Falcons decided to pick him up in Round 2 or 3, I woudln't have a problem with that.

I haven't seen much of Rogers, but I hear good things. There's talk he might sneak in late in teh 1st round, depending on if Antonio Perkins drops some more.

If the Falcons did choose a corner in Round 1, I'd however prefer it to be a guy like Marlin Jackson (Michigan), Corey Webster (LSU), or Pacman Jones (WVU), one of the guys that was initially thought to be a Top 10-20 guy that slipped a bit, rather than someone that is more seen as a 2nd/3rd round guy that stock jumped up a lot.

IMO, when a player's stock jumps up a lot between February and April, it's usually because of their workouts, and not their actual ability. Which I think is a red flag on a potential bust, especailly in the first round.

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 Post subject: online casinos
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:12 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Carlos Rogers would you be mad if falcons took him
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:38 am 
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thescout wrote:
Just curious Carlos Rogers has impressed me everytime I have seen him play and the need for corner is great.Webster won't be around for only a few more years and would give the falcon's probably 2 of the best corners if they live up to there potential.There is some talk over at the roost.com about carlos rogers so I thought I would bring his name up.If Pollack is gone and if the falcon's are not high on Matt roth,also following Gibbs selecting linemen later in draft,plus questionable safeties (is Davis a linebacker or safety,Nicholson of oklahoma didn't fair well vs USC) etc etc would a corner be a surprise pick and would you be upset if the corner was Carlos Rogers?


Play's for the Skin's right?


Yeah he is pretty good, but he also dropped a open INT that he wouldve taken to the house...but other than that, he was fine

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