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 Post subject: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:27 pm 
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- Fuel for discussion, but Tyrod has outpaced him across the board passing this season, in every single category (except tied for td passes). TT got ACC POY today as well. I know Ponders pro "potential", but theres something to be said for getting in done in actual games.

INDIVIDUAL OFFENSIVE STATS

Hokies QB Tyrod Taylor ranks
third nationally in interceptions (4),
13th in yards per attempt (8.8),
15th in passer rating (156.9),
31st in touchdown passes (20),
65th in yards per game (188.2),
and completion percentage (60.2).

Seminoles QB Christian Ponder ranks
57th in yards per attempt (7.0),
40th in passer rating (137.6),
31st in touchdown passes (20),
37th in interceptions (8),
69th in yards per game (185.3),
and completion percentage (62.1),

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Ponder looks to be definitely the better pro prospect, but I do think Taylor has the advantage in this game since he's going up against a weaker FSU secondary. And he's tough to stop unless you can get pressure on him. His ability to extend plays and make you pay for getting out of your lanes is trouble unless you have a really strong group of LBs and DEs. FSU isn't weak there, but I think they aren't strong enough to really throw a major wrench in Taylor's game. If you can get pressure on Ponder, he is prone to making mistakes, but FSU has a good O-line that shouldn't have too much trouble vs. VT's front 4.

The interesting matchup I think is going to be in the trenches in this game. FSU's O-line vs. VT's front seven, and vice versa.

Basically the winner of this game probably boils down to who has the most rushing success. If Rodney Hudson and Ryan McMahon can consistently get a hat on Bruce Taylor, I like FSU's chances. If they cannot, then VT has the edge just because their stable of runners between Taylor, Williams, and Wilson are probably going to break enough big runs to swing the game their way.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:41 pm 
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- Pretty good summation below from two anonymous ACC HCoaches. I would tend to agree, the better running/run stopping combo has the leg up, as well as which QB limits mistakes. This is VTs worst run D in prob 18 years, so FSU will have a chance, but also probably one of our strongest secondaries ever. So they should try to run and hit underneath stuff, but they def prefer the big plays. Something will have to give. I hope by the 4th qtr they're tired of chasing the 3 headed monster. I like the fact that FSU lost to both NCSt and UNC, two common opponents we beat.

David Teel
3:52 p.m. EST, December 2, 2010
http://www.dailypress.com/sports/colleg ... 188.column

Virginia Tech's skill players are better, its defense sound.

Florida State's quarterback is sneaky quick, its defense overrated.

Those are among the observations of two veteran ACC coaches who agreed, not for attribution, to analyze Saturday's conference championship game between the Hokies and Seminoles.

"Florida State wins with offense, not defense," said Coach A. "Their defense has some gaudy stats, but their defense is not like the old Florida State defense. They're still not back to that.

"They've got a couple guys who pass rush, but people have run the ball on them successfully. … Once you pass protect, (you can) beat them with a lot of double moves against their secondary. They've changed their whole defensive outlook. They used to be all man-to-man."

Under first-year head coach Jimbo Fisher and defensive coordinator Mark Stoops, the zone-based Seminoles lead the nation with 43 sacks (end Brandon Jenkins has 12) and rank 11th in scoring defense. But Oklahoma riddled them for 394 passing yards and 47 points, North Carolina State 189 yards rushing and 28 points, North Carolina 439 yards passing and 37 points.

Florida State (9-3, 6-2 ACC) lost all those games.

Virginia Tech ranks 13th nationally in scoring defense and hasn't allowed more than 21 points in any of its last seven games. But the Hokies have been vulnerable to the run, yielding 4.6 yards per rush, their worst since 1987, Frank Beamer's first season as coach.

"It'll be interesting to see whose offense is able to exploit whose defense," Coach B said. "Tech plays a system that is very sound. Their corners play back, so you're not going to throw deep on them. So it will be interesting to see if Florida State will try to attack them with some underneath, intermediate routes."

The status of Hokies cornerback Rashad Carmichael ( sprained ankle) is "a big deal," Coach B added.

If Carmichael is unavailable, the Seminoles are likely to target his replacement, true freshman Kyle Fuller.

Both coaches applauded the quarterbacks, Tech's Tyrod Taylor and Florida State's Christian Ponder, seniors and three-year starters.

"No one's Tyrod Taylor or even Russell Wilson," Coach A said. "But Ponder's as good as anyone (else) at moving in the pocket, and certainly they have designated runs for him. He understands the offense, he doesn't make many mistakes and distributes the ball to their guys who can make big plays."

Ponder and Taylor have each run for four touchdowns and passed for 20.

"It's amazing," Coach B said. "You watch teams try to defend Tyrod. What you see is sometimes they rush three with a spy back there. Tyrod will see the guy spying and be back there all day. I think he does a great job, when he feels the rush, particularly when teams play man-to-man and he sees that linebacker (turn his) back, he's gone, and before you know he's 15, 20 yards downfield and everybody's screaming.

"You sit back there and spy, shoot, they've got good receivers, they get open. How is Florida State going to try to contain Tyrod? … Ponder can pull the ball down and run, he's got a strong arm. I wouldn't be surprised if the rushing yards by the quarterbacks become very important."

Both coaches believe Taylor has more weapons, particularly with tailbacks Darren Evans, Ryan Williams and David Wilson. But Coach B warned Taylor about throwing to them.

"You can throw the ball out to the flat (against Florida State)," he said, "but before you know it, they're on you. They have linebackers that can run. Their speed, how they close on you, is excellent. They limit the yards after catch or yards after initial hit. They fly around to the ball."

Seminoles linebackers Nigel Bradham and Kendall Smith are 11th and 14th, respectively in the ACC in tackles. But Coach A believes Bud Foster's Tech defense, led by end Steven Friday, tackle John Graves, linebacker Bruce Taylor and cornerback Jayron Hosley, will be the difference.

"I think Virginia Tech will win," he said. "Because of the way Virginia Tech plays defense through the years, they'll find a way. Florida State scores on big plays. That's their offense. I don't know if you can drive the ball against Virginia Tech. If Virginia Tech can eliminate their big-play offense, they should be OK."

Coach B only hinted at a winner.

"To me," he said, "it will be a quarterback-decided game."

And Taylor has been the ACC's best quarterback.

"I'm glad he's gone," Coach B said. "To tell you the truth, I'm glad he's gone."

David Teel can be reached at 247-4636 or by e-mail at dteel@dailypress.com. For more from Teel, read his blog at dailypress.com/teeltime, and follow him at twitter.com/DavidTeelatDP.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:01 pm 
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I'd put my money on VT, but I do think FSU has a legit chance to win.

If FSU can just pound the ball down VT's throats, control the clock, wear down their defenses, and score points when they get into the redzone, it seems that will be tough to stop. BUt they will probably need to get an early lead and just dominate VT in the trenches the rest of the game.

That's a real possibility, since I think a matchup between Rodney Hudson and John Graves definitely favors FSU. I would just run behind him and see how many 3rd & 2 and 3rd & 1 situations that I can create that Ponder shouldn't have too much problem with converting.

But I think VT wins just because I think they have a little more margin for error. They don't have to play perfect to win, and have the definite advantage when it comes to generating big plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:26 pm 
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:fingersx: Tell me you saw the game and TT ripping FSU a new one all night long! That was easily one of the best college QB performances of the year. Those rollout throws against the grain were sick.

Meanwhile, Ponder misses b/c of needing tons of fluid drained form his elbow. Not gonna help him come April.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Sorry widetrak, I was crashing my brother's work Xmas party and while I did watch some of the game, was too drunk to really process what was going on. :drugged:

But I'll try and re-watch it tomorrow or Wednesday. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Sorry widetrak, I was crashing my brother's work Xmas party and while I did watch some of the game, was too drunk to really process what was going on.

But I'll try and re-watch it tomorrow or Wednesday.


:D Let me know whatcha think.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Ok, just re-watched the game. My DVR only recorded the first 3 hours because I wanted to record the UCLA-USC game (and apparently my DVR did not like that choice and opted not to do so). But it really didn't hurt it since that cut-off was right after the Morgan INT with 9 minutes left in the 4th, and pretty much the game was over at that point.

I'm not sure it was one of the best college QB performances of the year, but Taylor did play well. I can't dispute that. I still think he has some major issues projecting to the next level, and he was helped by FSU's defense playing soft. But he made some good throws. And he did show me some things in this game that make me think he's a bit more coachable than I previously believed. And despite my criticism of Taylor, I do like him as a prospect. If I was a stable team that could give him 2 years of sitting and watching and learning one offense, I like his chances of being a competent NFL starter (not good, but competent). Like if you could put him into the same situation that Dennis Dixon found himself in when the Steelers picked him, I would have had much higher hopes for Taylor going into this season than I did for Dixon.

It would have been interesting to see how Ponder would have done in this game. His line would have been able to give him time, and Manuel was able to target Whitley and Fuller quite a bit in the 1st half, and I wonder if Ponder would have been able to make those throws that Manuel missed. It should have at least been a bit more interesting in the 3rd quarter than it was with Ponder at the helm than Manuel. They probably wouldn't have won because of what Taylor and VT's offense did vs. FSU's defense, but it should have been more interesting/competitive through most of the night.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:31 pm 
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I do like him as a prospect. If I was a stable team that could give him 2 years of sitting and watching and learning one offense, I like his chances of being a competent NFL starter (not good, but competent). Like if you could put him into the same situation that Dennis Dixon found himself in when the Steelers picked him, I would have had much higher hopes for Taylor going into this season than I did for Dixon.


:D Read my mind, seriously. He is going to test extremely well at the combine fwiw. They'll like his attitude, he's always been team first all the way. Very coachable too. He couldn't have matured and rounded out like he has otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Again, I think the problem with Taylor that also plagued Vick, and this is why I compare the two is his ability to throw from the pocket.

When you're a QB that is 6-1, then you really need to have outstanding pocket mobility to move and slide in the pocket in order to find the throwing lanes to pass effectively. Drew Brees has this. Taylor and Vick do not. People often tend to confuse mobility with athleticism and the ability to extend plays. And while that is part of it, it is much more important to be able to move and slide within the pocket than to be able to escape it. That can help you in many ways, but it also leads to a large number of sacks and if you're in a 2nd & 8 and get sacked for a 6-yard loss, you've basically cost your team a drive.

This is what Taylor lacks, and Vick lacked too. Taylor trusts his legs too much. And there were many instances in the FSU game where if he was a good pocket passer that had good field vision and trusted his eyes, he could have found open receivers. But he doesn't do well with anticipation, and there were many instances where if he had that good field vision, he would have seen receivers just as they were breaking open and thrown them the ball, instead of waiting until they got open and then throwing the ball. And if he doesn't see it, his first instinct is to tuck it and run, evade the pocket, and then hope his receivers will break off their routes and get open. This is what Vick did to a great deal of success early in Atlanta, but as time wore on, it didn't work as well. Defenses were able to catch up, and it also meant that it was hard to develop new receivers and weapons besides Finn and Crumpler. This is why when Taylor gets to the next level, the game WILL DEFINITELY be too fast for him. The hope you have with Taylor instead of someone like Vick, is that he'll put in the extra effort in the film room to try and correct this critical flaw in his game.

I don't think he'll ever be coached up to a point where this first instinct to flee really escapes him, but you hope you can coach him up to a point where most weeks he can effectively manage a game. He'll be able to see those routes and WRs as they are about to break open and then be able to deliver the ball accurately. I think he can do these things, there was an instance vs. FSU where he showed really good recognition on a blitz, which is just one play, but it's one more play than you see out of A LOT of quarterback prospects. I'm just not sure he'll ever be able to do those things to the degree that one would expect out of a Top 15 starting QB in the league. But at worst, he should be as good a pro QB as Tarvaris Jackson.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Taylor trusts his legs too much. And there were many instances in the FSU game where if he was a good pocket passer that had good field vision and trusted his eyes, he could have found open receivers. But he doesn't do well with anticipation, and there were many instances where if he had that good field vision, he would have seen receivers just as they were breaking open and thrown them the ball, instead of waiting until they got open and then throwing the ball.


Well I thought you had rounded the corner on your analysis, but you've gone back to regressive thinking. What instances are you referring to? Everybody open he hit in that game, and any that may have been open but missed, you wouldn't have been able to see on tv. You don't have nfl coaching tape w/ all 22. The regressive thought you keep having is to compare him to VIck still, again, thats just not accurate. No one that ever watches him play regularly says that, but boy is it an easy regressive thought to come up with.

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I don't think he'll ever be coached up to a point where this first instinct to flee really escapes him, but you hope you can coach him up to a point where most weeks he can effectively manage a game.


He already does this. Has for over a year now. How can you not watch and see he's always moving to throw? Only when its no options does he run. In fact, I'm not sure how much better he could be at this point on the decision making, knowing when to run vs pass. Just cause you run well, doesn't mean you make poor decisions. Its simply giving you more to think about with more options. No doubt he will need to speed up decisions even more so at the next level, but to pretend he still struggles with this in college is insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:31 pm 
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You're not really paying attention.

You're right, I don't have coach's tape. But the value of instant replay is that they sometimes show overhead shots from behind the line, and when you combine that with the power of DVR and the ability to rewind, you can get quite a lot on a handful of plays. And that's what it was a handful of plays, that clearly you could see his receivers breaking open, but he did not throw the ball because he lacks anticipation. Clearly, you don't see that he often stares down his receivers, waiting for them to get open, and then only then throws them the ball, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Almost every single of one his passes to Danny Coale is a good example of this.

The comparison with Vick is very much accurate, you just refuse to accept it for whatever reason. If you pop in tape of Taylor from the past two seasons and Vick from 2005 and/or 2006 and not see significant if not overwhelming similarities, tells me that you either are incapable of seeing things or unwilling to see them.

Look there is a reason why there aren't a ton of successful starting 6-0 or 6-1 QBs in the NFL. Because at that height, it's hard to see over the blockers. And in order to be an effective pocket passer, you need a superb sense of anticipation, and the ability to move and slide around the pocket to find open throwing lanes. This is why I mentioned Drew Brees, because he does this about as good as anyone in the league, and is why he is one of the best in the biz despite only being 6-1. Vick did not have this, and that's why he was sacked a ton (and why Brees is one of the least sacked QBs). Taylor is right there with Vick on this one, and it's clear when you actually are watching him with a scouting eye, rather than just looking at him with a fan eye.

Watching his footwork, watching how he has a tendency to start getting happy feet and clutching the ball after a certain instance is almost identical to what Vick used to do. Now, unlike Vick, Taylor is much more willing to extend the play and throw the ball rather than just simply tuck it and run. You're simply judging it by how many times does he actually cross the line of scrimmage as a time when he runs. I'm watching much more intently, and everytime you see him start to hop around and him start to clutch the ball, that is his brain/instincts telling him "RUN!" and his training is saying, "Wait a sec, give it some time." And so he doesn't run, but he'll do his best to extend the play, which is the same as running because in the National Football League the pass rushers are so good that more often than not you cannot escape the pocket and be able to extend every play. This got Vick into trouble, and is why he was sacked so much.

In order to overcome his height to efficiently and consistently throw from the pocket, he has to do a much better job managing the pocket and show better anticipation on his reads.

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 Post subject: Re: Taylor vs Ponder
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:07 pm 
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STANFORD COACH JIM HARBAUGH
http://hamptonroads.com/blogs/kyle-tucker

:mrgreen:

Quote:
ON HIS IMPRESSIONS OF VIRGINIA TECH QB TYROD TAYLOR AND WHETHER HE HAS THE LOOK OF AN NFL PROSPECT: “Boy, he sure does. Just really impressed with him as a passer, runner. Very strong leader, sturdy young guy who gets out of the pocket. I love the way he keeps his eyes downfield. There’s a lot of good running quarterbacks who break out of the pocket and you know they’re just going to run. But he gets out of the pocket and his eyes are downfield, scanning. He makes great decisions with the football – when to run, when to throw.

“He’s a scary guy when you’re the opposing coach. I’ve just been impressed with what he’s accomplished. When you’re winning with numbing repetition like Virginia Tech, and he has been their quarterback, that stands out. The proof is right there in the pudding. The evidence is there: he’s a quality quarterback.”

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