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 Post subject: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:23 pm 
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By Adam Schefter
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Tim Tebow is, essentially, painting over the masterpiece he created at the University of Florida.

In an effort to quiet his critics and refine his game, Tebow is changing the way he holds a football, shifting it from his waist to his shoulder. He is concentrating on taking three- and five-step drops instead of working out of the shotgun formation he did at Florida.

He will not unveil Tebow 2.0 at this week's scouting combine in Indianapolis, preferring instead to wait for his pro day at the University of Florida on March 17.

"I'm not changing who I am or how I approach football," Tebow said Sunday night from Nashville, Tenn., where he has been busy remaking the style that was good enough to win one Heisman Trophy and two national championships at Florida.

"But there are things that I can get a lot better at -- my fundamentals. I've never been asked to shorten or quicken my release and not have a loop in it. The changes I'm making have gone very well and it's becoming more and more natural to me."

Asked if he would have embarked on such an extensive and exhausting process had his performance at the Senior Bowl not been so roundly criticized, Tebow said: "Probably, just because of the quarterback coaches I've been working with. I want to get better. I want to be around people who will push me. I will do anything to get better. Without hearing the criticism, I would have done it.

"It's made me more confident, more accurate. And that's not to say I haven't had this type of coaching in the past. I just have had different coaching than this NFL style."

Tebow has been tutored in a pro-style way by working with a coaching team that includes former NFL offensive coordinator Zeke Bratkowski, Montreal Alouettes head coach Marc Trestman, Arizona State's new offensive coordinator Noel Mazzone and former NFL head coach Sam Wyche.

Bratkowski has concentrated on getting Tebow to raise the football to where it now does not dip lower than his shoulder. The delivery that allowed Tebow to complete over 67 percent of his passes at Florida but the one that also was roundly questioned during and after the Senior Bowl has begun to be made over at the pre-draft workouts in Nashville.

Much of the work has started with Tebow's feet, which were used to working out of a shotgun offense. Bratkowski and others have drilled Tebow on the requisite footwork that he will need to become a successful NFL quarterback.


You're not looking at the same quarterback. To say we're there 100 percent where we want to be, no. But we'll be more improved come pro day.

-- Former NFL offensive coordinator Zeke Bratkowski, part of the coaching team tutoring Tim Tebow
Anyone who has seen Tebow has noticed the difference -- already.

"You're not looking at the same quarterback," said Bratkowski, who has worked with quarterbacks such as San Diego's Philip Rivers, Philadelphia's Michael Vick and Boomer Esiason. "To say we're there 100 percent where we want to be, no. But we'll be more improved come pro day than we are at this point in time now."

Tebow still will attend this week's combine, go through his medical tests, meet with coaches, and do everything but throw. Then he will return to Gainesville to further work on upgrading his fundamentals with Bratkowski and others so that Tebow will not revert back to his old ways during his upcoming workouts.

"That's the reason we're trying to rep it and rep it and rep it," Bratkowski said. Those that have seen Tebow's new delivery believe it is noticeably quicker.

"The ball is coming out a lot faster now," Trestman said. Yet what most impressed Trestman about Tebow was not the quarterback's adaptability but his mental capacity.

"His intelligence level is as high as any quarterback I've encountered coming out of college," Trestman said. "His intelligence is off the charts. After spending time with Tim, it was evident that he learned a lot of football in his four years at Florida -- a lot.

"As a result he has been able to quickly adapt and make corrections in his throwing motion and footwork that will allow him to get the ball out faster and improve his accuracy. He has more than enough arm strength and shown he can make all the throws at the next level. He has only been at it for a few weeks so I can only anticipate he will continue to improve."

Bratkowski said the coaches learn more from Tebow than he learns from them. His intelligence has enabled him to grasp what the coaches are trying to teach.

Many, including ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr. and Todd McShay, questioned how Tebow's delivery would translate at the NFL level.

Other quarterbacks have tried a similar approach, achieving mixed results. From the time he left Tennessee and arrived in Indianapolis, quarterback Peyton Manning changed and perfected his delivery. Former No. 1 overall pick David Carr once changed his, but never managed to make it consistently work.

Other high-profile athletes in other sports have changed their game, as well. Through the years, Tiger Woods has changed his golf swing on multiple occasions. Now Tebow is waging a similar battle, trying to upgrade his fundamentals in time for his NFL pro day, so teams can be impressed enough with him to draft him higher than they currently have him slotted.

"Things like this are challenges for him," Bratkowski said. "He doesn't have rabbit ears, but he knows what people are saying and he hears it -- and that motivates him. He is working hard to make sure what he is doing now is something he can showcase later."

Tebow does not plan to wait long.

"I've done this several thousand times," Tebow said. "With continued work, I will have this down pat by minicamp. It will be like second nature. It's not like it feels awkward to me now. I'm excited about the changes I've made."

Adam Schefter is ESPN's NFL Insider.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:20 pm 
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:shock: :lol: :lol:

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Tebow is changing the way he holds a football, shifting it from his waist to his shoulder. He is concentrating on taking three- and five-step drops


Nothing like learning college freshshirt-freshman fundamentals days before the combine kicks off. :roll:

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After spending time with Tim, it was evident that he learned a lot of football in his four years at Florida -- a lot.


LOL, just not how to correctly take steps or throw. Damn, if I'm Bama I'm using this in recruiting.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:22 pm 
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widetrak21 wrote:
:shock: :lol: :lol:

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Tebow is changing the way he holds a football, shifting it from his waist to his shoulder. He is concentrating on taking three- and five-step drops


Nothing like learning college freshshirt-freshman fundamentals days before the combine kicks off. :roll:

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After spending time with Tim, it was evident that he learned a lot of football in his four years at Florida -- a lot.


LOL, just not how to correctly take steps or throw. Damn, if I'm Bama I'm using this in recruiting.

Says the guy that likes Tyrod Taylor. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Says the guy that likes Tyrod Taylor.


At this point I'd take TT over Tebow all day. TT throws and runs better, and its not really close. BTW, Tyrod fixed his own delivery. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:59 pm 
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But is Tyrod any more prepared for the NFL game than Tebow? I don't think so. Tyrod can't throw from the pocket at all. He can't read defenses, and is only an effective passer when he's scrambling around and outside the pocket. If you apply the Vick rules to him, confine him to the pocket, he's going to be an erratic 50% completions guy that can't see over the blockers, just like Vick. But the difference is that Taylor isn't going to come into the league with a 4-year grace period where teams don't know how to play him like Vick did.

If his playing style is any indicator, when teams get Taylor in the film room and start asking him to diagram and break down film, he's going to bomb. So the fact that his mechanics, really is meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:37 pm 
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If his playing style is any indicator, when teams get Taylor in the film room and start asking him to diagram and break down film, he's going to bomb. So the fact that his mechanics, really is meaningless.


So b/c Tebow is possibly smarter means his low delivery, noodle arm gets a pass... :shock: So if you're smart enough, the physical tools in the nfl are irrelevant?? You don't even get a shot if you don't have the physical tools, so the part you're arguing is whats more irrelevant.

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But is Tyrod any more prepared for the NFL game than Tebow? I don't think so.


Right now, no, Tebow's been a senior, TT a rising senior. So Tebow would win experience, but TT would win a current NFL skills polish contest (plus he has another year to grow). His delivery is more textbook and he would run circles around Tebow. This is obviously a big reason for the combine, to nick pick the polish, or lack there of.

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Tyrod can't throw from the pocket at all. He can't read defenses, and is only an effective passer when he's scrambling around and outside the pocket.


You did see the massive jump he made in being a real qb, staying in the pocket, reading defenses, running as a LAST resort??? Really he hardly ran this past year compared to earlier as fresh/soph. Why? Cause he finally has mastered the offense, the delivery, reading d's and most importantly, having an oline capable of making him not have to take off running so often. All you have to do is the eyeball test to see that. Let alone if you go check the jump in his numbers. And its not like hes gonna get worse with the talent VT's toting on O next year.

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If you apply the Vick rules to him, confine him to the pocket, he's going to be an erratic 50% completions guy that can't see over the blockers, just like Vick. But the difference is that Taylor isn't going to come into the league with a 4-year grace period where teams don't know how to play him like Vick did.


Why would Vick rules apply? Cause he played at VT. :lol: I wouldn't even compare MV and TT, AT ALL. Very, very different set of players. Everyone thinks theyre comparable cause TT can run so effectively, but thats about where the comparisons end. TT is already WAY more a rounded qb that Vick ever became.

At the end of the day this is about whats lacking for Tebow to transition to the NFL in my eyes. You aren't surprised that he doesn't have good command of some of the most basic principles of being a QB??? 3 step drops, 5 step drops, knowing when to throw the ball away, proper throwing mechanics.

Hypo -- If Tony Pike had these same troubles transitioning, and played at Cincinnati like he did, we would even know who Tony Pike was at this point? HELL NO. But since were dealing with the great Teblow, you actually have to "reconsider" what it takes to be an actual NFL qb.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Stat time...cause Tebow takes off about 2x more than TT. So who more polished as a passer, versus who really relies on their legs????

Last year Tebow ran 217 times in reg season. 15.6 rushes per game avg.
TT ran 101 times in reg season. 8.4 rpg average.

Passing......
Tebow
Senior - 213 att/ 314 completed, 2895 yards, 9.2 ypa, 21/5 td/int ratio

Tyrod
Soph - 99/173, 1036, 6 ypa, 2/7 ratio
Junior - 136/243, 2311, 9.5 ypa, 13/5 ratio

I would say its pretty hard to have your numbers jump much more between year 2/3 than TT did. Give him 75 more attempts like Tebow and he has the yards and TD's to match. Fla is MUCH more a passing team than VT too. Do you see the jump in YPA, that and the td/int ratio more than speak for his progress. So if the arm and wheels are better, and you see the numbers, I'm not sure why we'd think TT would be any worse a prospect 1 year from now than Tebow. If anything he'll have a higher ceiling based on the trends.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Those aren't basic concepts anymore. The Spread Offense has spread like a plague in high school and college football over the past decade. So that a guy can be a starting QB all 4 years in HS and college and I can count on 1 hand how many snaps he may take from under center.

Mechanics can be improved. But you don't need good mechanics to be a productive NFL quarterback. VIck didn't have good mechanics. His throwing motion was almost identical to that which dropped Andre Woodson 3-4 rounds. Yet it wasn't his throwing motion that prevented Vick from being a successful NFL quarterback.

It was his inability to throw from the pocket, poor touch, lacking accuracy, and decision making. Maybe I need to watch more of Tyrod Taylor, but from what I've seen of him the past two years, I see the exact same thing. I still have another VT game to watch on my DVR and was going to focus mostly on Worilds and Render, but I'll keep my eye on Taylor to see if I see anything different.

So no, to answer your question I did not see any massive jump from Taylor.

Here's my stance on Tebow, and it's been this way from the get-go. I don't see anything in his game to make me believe he can't be as successful an NFL quarterback as Byron Leftwich was. Now, if a team is content to being 8-8 or 9-7 every year and getting trounced in the playoffs by the Colts each year, then Tebow can be your man.

In terms of his pure physical ability, Tebow is at best a 7th round pick. But throw in his intangibles, then it probably bumps him up to a 4th round pick. As for Taylor, IMO he's a late round pick as well that maybe his athleticism might bump him up to a 4th round pick.

On the right team with the right development, both players could get a team to the playoffs. But neither is going to do much. To me, I'd compare Tebow to Leftwich, and I'd compare Taylor to Seneca Wallace. They can win games, but if you build your team around them at this point, you're screwed.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:14 pm 
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You also have to remember you're comparing two different offenses. Tebow plays in an offense where he is both the QB and RB.

Taylor has played with good NFL quality RBs in a more traditional pro style offense.

When people use stats as a comparative tool between college players, I just roll my eyes. You can't find a more irrelevant method of "analyzing" sports than that. Perhaps maybe trying to find a correlation between 40 times and the quality of player.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:08 pm 
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So no, to answer your question I did not see any massive jump from Taylor.


:shock: :shock: GO WATCH YOUR TAPE THEN. You can see it in his numbers, let alone with your eyes. You don't have to like him (even a little bit), but you'd be a FOOL to not recognize he pretty much put it all together this year.

Quote:
Here's my stance on Tebow, and it's been this way from the get-go. I don't see anything in his game to make me believe he can't be as successful an NFL quarterback as Byron Leftwich was. Now, if a team is content to being 8-8 or 9-7 every year and getting trounced in the playoffs by the Colts each year, then Tebow can be your man.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So the man you're sticking up for so valiantly, you're comparing to Byron Leftwich. Skills of a 7th rounder to boot! Who could literally take a team to mediocrity. :dance: :lol: COME ON MAN! :rofl:

I understand the system difference just fine, I was just putting into context for you that Tebow ran 2x more than TT, b/c you tried to bring up Vick, not me.

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Taylor has played with good NFL quality RBs in a more traditional pro style offense.

Which should help him with making a potential jump in a year.

He certainly won't be having to learn how to take a snap from under center. I get the differences in scheme with the spread, but don't pretend for one sec its not retarded to be on the verge of the combine and have no experience what so ever with what ALL the teams run in the NFL. The spread is helping no one prepare for the NFL, let alone a dude with a s***ty arm and no basic qb skills. But I'm sure his "intangibles" will get the ball into those windows on time.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:25 pm 
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You're absolutely right, the spread isn't helping. But it wins games in college, and Urban Meyer's job isn't to produce quality NFL quarterbacks, it's to win games in college.

Look I'm only "valiantly" defending Tebow because you seem to belief that comparing him and Taylor is like night and day. I don't see a lot of difference. IMHO, both players are equally UNPREPARED for the National Football League.

All those people that slept on Matt Ryan 3 years ago did so because whenever people said the word "intangibles" they said "intangibles shmintangibles." I'm not going to sleep on Tebow because he has similar intangibles.

Everybody wants to find the franchise QB, but it's a rare commodity. IMHO, there is only 1 potentially in this draft and his name is Sam Bradford. Most teams have to settle for JAGs (like Tebow) and pretty good players (like Clausen), and then build up the rest of their team and hope it all works out.

From what I've seen of Taylor, I see a player that is similar to Vick when he first began, and a guy that like Vick will never be comfortable throwing from the pocket, and thus will never be a consistent passer. Because regardless of whether you take snaps from under center or shotgun, or you have a good release or not, if your first instinct is to evade/run rather than pass, then you're not going to be anymore successful than a guy like Tebow.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:50 am 
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All those people that slept on Matt Ryan 3 years ago did so because whenever people said the word "intangibles" they said "intangibles shmintangibles." I'm not going to sleep on Tebow because he has similar intangibles.

And I was one of the people talking up those intangibles, so I know what you mean. The biggest difference to me was Ryan could make all the throws, in a pro style offense, which he ran seemlessly. You had SEEN it before. Unfortunately for Tebow, the spread provides none of those benefits. They pay these guys too much to waste 2 years teaching him fundamentals, to not even know if he will "get" it so to speak.

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From what I've seen of Taylor, I see a player that is similar to Vick when he first began, and a guy that like Vick will never be comfortable throwing from the pocket, and thus will never be a consistent passer.

Real honestly, I think you've pigeon holed TT into the Vick mold, when really they're just not the same style. Its too simplistic to see TT's run skills and make an easy comparison. Maybe I've noticed much more b/c I see all the tech games, and the transition really has been continual since he was a freshman. I'm not saying he's great, or the 2nd coming of anything. I just see a kid with a lot of natural talent, that DIDN'T simply rely on it b/c he could run. If that was the case he would have kept on running this past year. Instead he's FAR and AWAY a pass first qb, only running as a 2nd option. There were times this past yr I would yell at the tv for him to take off, only to have him hit his third read b/c he can buy a little time. Thats when you're starting to put it all together imho, and this past year should give him a great launching pad into next year. You need to reevaluate imho.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Tebow and Ryan aren't the same. Ryan ran an NFL offense successfully. I think Tebow would really struggle as a rookie passer if he was put in that position. But where I like Tebow's intangibles is his long-term work ethic. Be patient with him, give him time to work, and he will. He doesn't have the ability to respond to adversity like Ryan, and be a successful NFL quarterback early in his career. But 3-4 years down the road, I like his chances.

As for Taylor, I do believe he's a better passer than Vick. But again, it's all about his ability to manage the pocket. From what I saw of Taylor this past year, he was most effective as a passer when he was outside the pocket, running around, scrambling and improvising.

He was very effective when he was improvising outside the pocket. Buying time, and waiting for his receivers to break off routes and then make the throw. This was exactly where Michael Vick was most successful as a passer, and it is why IMO why the pass protection was inconsistent and the WRs did not develop under him. I see much of the same flaws in Taylor that I saw in Vick during his NFL career: lack of height in order to see throwing lanes, discomfort reading from the pocket, etc.

And while he may not be a "rushing QB" like Vick was or Tebow, he's a running QB because IMO his passing ability is predicated on his ability to escape the pocket, so he can see clear throwing lanes, and improvise. And that's what I mean he relies on his legs.

In the NFL, you have to be able to deliver the ball from the pocket in like 1.8 or 2.1 seconds, whatever the number is. But when I've watched Taylor play, it seems like it's taking him 3, 4, 5, 6, or more seconds to find the open receivers. And regardless of whether he has good mechanics and is productive in a pro style offense, that's simply not going to cut it.

IMO, Tebow has that same deficiency. IMO, one is just as raw as an NFL quarterback prospect as the next. I feel the same way about WVU's Jarrett Brown. At least Brown has the excuse that he only play 1 year unlike Tebow (4) and Taylor (3).

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:16 am 
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http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-player-in ... -interview

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:47 pm 
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:D I actually watched this live on NFL total access last night.

Its not hard to see what you see in him, as he oozes personality and "want to". Kinda the anti-premadonna. I'll even give him a little credit in that he's obviously dove face first into the stuff he never learned at UF. But were still talking about 5 step drops (which he illustrated), taking snaps from under center, holding the ball at your shoulder, etc. I just still wonder how long it takes him to get comfortable, if ever. Its pretty hard to do something the same way for 15+ years, and strip it all away in a couple weeks. Theres a reason he's not throwing at the combine, and its not cause its only 12-15 reps. I also think its gonna be pretty easy for him to revert back to sloppy mechanics once the Dwight Freeney's are breathing down your neck. None of that even considers his arm strength.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:45 pm 
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You're right. He's not ever going to be a guy known for great mechanics. But I do believe you can tweak his mechanics to a degree where they cease to be a liability. That happened with Vick through coaching. His mechanics were never great in Atlanta, and certainly contributed to his poor accuracy, but even without having a great work ethic, Vick's mechanics during the Mora years weren't bad enough to a degree where I would say it's costing the team games.

But I think I said this in another thread, but he doesn't have to play in an offense where he is under center. 50% of Drew Brees passes came from the shotgun this past year. And if you just increased that number by 3 more per game, it would have jumped up to around 67%.

Tebow isn't for everybody, and I think there are probably only a handful of teams out there that he could suceed with. The Saints I think are one of them, and if I was Sean Payton I'd probably take him at the end of Round 3 if available (I doubt he is).

A team will have to adapt their offense around him. And playing a lot of shotgun is probably step 1 to make him more effective/comfortable. If I was a playoff team that was looking for a developmental backup like the Saints, Patriots, then I would think Tebow would be a better fit than he would on a rebuilding team like the Rams or Jaguars.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:07 pm 
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That happened with Vick through coaching. His mechanics were never great in Atlanta, and certainly contributed to his poor accuracy, but even without having a great work ethic, Vick's mechanics during the Mora years weren't bad enough to a degree where I would say it's costing the team games.


He got his arm mechanics better over time, but he never would keep his feet right. Thats why he always threw those high fastballs.

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 Post subject: Re: Tebow to unveil new delivery at pro day
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Here are some notes I have on a player:
Quote:
- Has an excellent arm and shows good potential as a vertical passer, able to show good touch on many of his throws downfield. Can laser passes and can thread the needle. Has excellent mobility and has a habit of slipping tacklers and can avoid sacks. But has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. Does a good job keeping his eyes downfield and does his best work when he's improvising. Works well in the mobile pocket. Has good accuracy when given time, although his touch can improve and he'll be high on some throws. Not comfortable throwing from the pocket, and needs to do a better job securing the ball when he's scrambling around. Doesn't have the pocket management skills to be a consistent passer at the next level and ball security and accuracy can be a problem. Doesn't seem to go through progressions, and usually just improvises until receivers run open. Can't manage or run an NFL offense, but has the athletic ability to be a top player at another position, most likely wide receiver.
- Has a strong arm and able to drive the ball downfield with a flick of the wrist. Can thread the needle. Throws well on the run. Doesn't show great accuracy and touch, with passes that tend to sail on him. And he'll fire some high lasers when he doesn't need to. Doesn't go through his progressions well. Typically has one read, which he stares down, and if he is not open will tuck and run to try and extend the play. Doesn't throw comfortably from the pocket. Holds onto the ball too long, and too quick to tuck and run. Does a nice job extending the play with his quickness and athleticism. Usually keeps his eyes downfield to find open receiver. Needs to do a better job setting his feet. Has a quirky release which causes him to dip the ball down on the windup ..., which can elongate it at times. Is an outstanding runner that is shifty in the open field and is very hard to tackle one on one. Can be tentative about contact and has issues with ball security as he has a tendency to cough up the ball whenever he gets popped. He has a long clock in his head, and just doesn't throw well from the pocket or read the field well.

Those are my notes on Tyrod Taylor from this past year. And I think anyone that had no clue I was writing about Taylor could read those and think I was talking about Michael Vick.

I don't think I'm pigeonholing him at all. IMO, I see the same player in Taylor today as I saw in Vick in the middle of his career here in Atlanta.

Can you give Taylor credit for being 4-5 years "ahead" of Vick in his development? Absolutely. But I think if Michael Vick was coming through the college ranks today, he wouldn't be considered as highly touted a prospect as he was almost 10 years ago. I think if you could time-warp Vick to today, he would be considered a borderline 1st/2nd round pick instead of being in the running for the No. 1 overall pick.

Taylor is a talented player, and I'm not writing him off as a Vick clone. I just find it hard to believe that you can watch Taylor play, watch Vick play, and without factoring all that other baggage, you don't see a huge degree of similarities between them. Sure, Taylor maybe a lot better than Hokie Vick. But Taylor is almost a carbon copy of Falcon Vick.

Now, at least with Taylor he has the chance that he can still change my mind. If I see him doing much more 3 and 5-step drops, and throwing with accuracy and anticipation from the pocket this upcoming season, then I will happily change my opinion of him. But in all of the VT games I've seen so far, the same exact rules apply to Taylor as they did with Vick: if you confine him to the pocket, he probably won't hurt you.

And until that changes, I don't see much reason why I should be higher on him as a pro prospect than I would be on someone like Tebow.

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"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


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