More Vick Hate

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More Vick Hate

Postby dirtybirdnw » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:06 am

Courtesy of Page 2's Jason Whitlock:

6. Memo to Michael Vick: 228 passing yards, one TD and three second-half points is not a sign that you're the second coming of Dan Marino.

The league's most underutilized wide receiver feels that he answered his critics by lighting up the Miami defense for 17 points on Sunday. I wasn't impressed. And, yes, I'm well aware that Vick has been at the scene of a lot of Atlanta victories.

You know what? Trent Dilfer once was spotted at a Baltimore Ravens Super Bowl party. It didn't make Dilfer a top-flight quarterback. I would label Vick the Human Highlight Film II, but it would be a disservice to Dominique Wilkins, who at least put stats on the board.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ock/051110
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Postby Statick » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:15 am

LOL! Stats? Who gives a rat's patootie! The entire premise behind his statement is Fantasy fooball based! Fantasy football, for crying out loud!

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Postby buddyboy » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:16 am

based on his sarcasm and condescending tone this guy obviously has a personal dislike for vick. the stats he used at the beginning of his 'op ed piece' was just a prop for his attack. the guy, believes vick is overrated but what really gauls this joker is that 1) vick doesn't seem to realize he's overrated. vick actually think's he's a good qb! 2) vick keeps winning. you can tell that this guy is just waiting for vick to fail, to have a bad game so he can come gloat. i've read this whitlock guys stuff before and sometimes it's funny and occasionally insightful but in the case with vick, he's being a jackass.

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Postby AngryJohnny51 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:35 am

Statick wrote:LOL! Stats? Who gives a rat's patootie! The entire premise behind his statement is Fantasy fooball based! Fantasy football, for crying out loud!


Agree. Vick wins period. To win the Super Bowl, he needs to be more consistant passing, just in case the running game is taken away....

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Postby BirdWeisErrr » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:39 am

Even I think he's being a little ridiculous calling Vick an underutilized WR. However, I also get tired of hearing about all Vick does is win. Like I've said b4, look at Brady this season. I think we'd agree that Brady is a better QB than Vick. OK, so why havent the Patriots won more games than the Falcons? Why doesnt the team with the best QB in the NFL each year go undefeated? Why did Marino never get a SB ring? How did Dilfer get a ring?

You see, football as we know it is a team sport. You can be the best QB ever and your team could possibly never win a game. Or, you could be the worst QB ever, and your team could possibly never lose a game.

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Postby meansonny » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:07 pm

You see, football as we know it is a team sport. You can be the best QB ever and your team could possibly never win a game. Or, you could be the worst QB ever, and your team could possibly never lose a game.[/quote]


The great thing is that Vick is a system QB. The system helps Vick win if he doesn't perform lights out. But the system won't work if Vick isn't in the game. It's what Vick's presence can do for the running game. And IMO, the running game is the most crucial piece of a Super Bowl calibre team (time of possession, wearing down an opposing D). Credit goes to Knapp for the system which brought Vick to the NFC title game last year. Give Vick his props for winning in this system.

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:46 pm

BirdWeisErrr wrote:Like I've said b4, look at Brady this season. I think we'd agree that Brady is a better QB than Vick. OK, so why havent the Patriots won more games than the Falcons?


Unfair comparrison there. It isn't Brady's fault that 2/3's of their defense is beat to hell and Dillon has been hobbled most the season. Great quarterbacks can only do so much (see Dan Marino and the absolutely horrid defenses he had "helping" him try and win a title) before the failures (or injuries as it were) of the team become overwhelming.
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Postby BirdWeisErrr » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:48 pm

dirtybirdnw wrote:
BirdWeisErrr wrote:Like I've said b4, look at Brady this season. I think we'd agree that Brady is a better QB than Vick. OK, so why havent the Patriots won more games than the Falcons?


Unfair comparrison there. It isn't Brady's fault that 2/3's of their defense is beat to hell and Dillon has been hobbled most the season. Great quarterbacks can only do so much (see Dan Marino and the absolutely horrid defenses he had "helping" him try and win a title) before the failures (or injuries as it were) of the team become overwhelming.


Exactly. You're correct. A QB can only do so much. So saying that all Vick does is win is an unfair statement to the rest of the team. No matter how good Vick plays in a game, the team isnt gonna win that game unless others play well also.

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Postby Steve-O » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:54 pm

Exactly. You're correct. A QB can only do so much. So saying that all Vick does is win is an unfair statement to the rest of the team. No matter how good Vick plays in a game, the team isnt gonna win that game unless others play well also.[/quote]

but I have seen Vick, for all intents and purposes, take the entire team on his shoulders and win games pretty much by himself....I think Vick deserves most of the praise and criticism he gets....unfortunetly for him there hasn't really been a player like him before so everyone (fans, media, players) aren't really sure exactly how to take him....

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Postby BirdWeisErrr » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:27 pm

but I have seen Vick, for all intents and purposes, take the entire team on his shoulders and win games pretty much by himself....

I'd like to have a video of that. Do you have one?

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Postby meansonny » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:46 pm

BirdWeisErrr wrote:but I have seen Vick, for all intents and purposes, take the entire team on his shoulders and win games pretty much by himself....

I'd like to have a video of that. Do you have one?


I think the Minny game where Vick split the defenders in the 4th quarter for the TD.
Carolina where Vick flew 1 inch off the ground into the endzone late in the game.

He's had some comebacks where he threw the ball (but that wouldn't be considered on his own).

ESPN plays those highlights all the time.

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Postby BirdWeisErrr » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:24 pm

meansonny wrote:
BirdWeisErrr wrote:but I have seen Vick, for all intents and purposes, take the entire team on his shoulders and win games pretty much by himself....

I'd like to have a video of that. Do you have one?


I think the Minny game where Vick split the defenders in the 4th quarter for the TD.
Carolina where Vick flew 1 inch off the ground into the endzone late in the game.

He's had some comebacks where he threw the ball (but that wouldn't be considered on his own).

ESPN plays those highlights all the time.


You're not gonna convince me that Vick won a game by himself unless you have video of it.

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Postby AngryJohnny51 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:28 pm

BirdWeisErrr wrote:
meansonny wrote:
BirdWeisErrr wrote:but I have seen Vick, for all intents and purposes, take the entire team on his shoulders and win games pretty much by himself....

I'd like to have a video of that. Do you have one?


I think the Minny game where Vick split the defenders in the 4th quarter for the TD.
Carolina where Vick flew 1 inch off the ground into the endzone late in the game.

He's had some comebacks where he threw the ball (but that wouldn't be considered on his own).

ESPN plays those highlights all the time.


You're not gonna convince me that Vick won a game by himself unless you have video of it.


Oh man, is "'Comp" gonna be ripping you a new one. :wink:

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Postby The_Incomparable » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:34 pm

Jesus, could someone tell Cap to take the link to this place out of his AtlantaFalcons Message Board sig please? It is attracting the wrong kind of crowd.

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Postby meansonny » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:43 pm

You're not gonna convince me that Vick won a game by himself unless you have video of it.
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying. I guess I should clarify. Vick has a big play ability, which can help turn the momentum/score/outcome of a game. And he has done so in the past. And a lot of those big plays are due to scrambles/dekes/jukes that turn out into first downs or points.

Vick hasn't won any game on his own. But I agree with Steve-O that Vick can take the game into his own hands.

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Postby BirdWeisErrr » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:53 pm

meansonny wrote:
You're not gonna convince me that Vick won a game by himself unless you have video of it.


I understand what you're saying. I guess I should clarify. Vick has a big play ability, which can help turn the momentum/score/outcome of a game. And he has done so in the past. And a lot of those big plays are due to scrambles/dekes/jukes that turn out into first downs or points.

Vick hasn't won any game on his own. But I agree with Steve-O that Vick can take the game into his own hands.[/quote]

And T Brady can too, and so can manning, and so can others. The point I'm making is that NO QB in the NFL or in the history of football wins or loses without the help of a team. I'm saying that the people that say stats dont matter, wins and losses is what counts, I agree with them. For the ones saying that all Vick does is win, I'm not totally disagreeing, but a teams wins or a teams losses isnt the effect of only the QB's play.

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Postby The_Incomparable » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:05 pm

And what most of us are saying is that this team was at the bottom of the league for the better part of 40 years until we drafted Vick. It all changed in 2002 when he took a SORRY Falcons team to the 2nd round of the playoffs in his first year as a starter. Carson palmer didn't do that and he had Rudi, Chad, and a good O line. Vick did it with considerably less talent. In fact I would be hard pressed to find a better effort by one player to take his team into the playoffs than Vick was forced to give in 2002 due to this team's lack of talent, as was evidenced by the horror that was 2003.

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:48 pm

I'm with Comp on this one.

Never thought I'd say that :shock:
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Postby Pudge » Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:40 am

meansonny wrote:The great thing is that Vick is a system QB. The system helps Vick win if he doesn't perform lights out. But the system won't work if Vick isn't in the game. It's what Vick's presence can do for the running game.


My dad is a Steeler fan and we were discussing this very topic this past weekend. Ben Roethlisberger and Michael Vick are the QBs on the best running teams in the league (Falcons are #1 in rushing yards and attempts, Steelers are #3 in attempts, and #5 in yards). But when either player is out of the game, their offenses lose somehting.

Logically, it doesn't make sense. Since if they run the ball so well, they shouldn't need their starting QB in order to keep doing it. But for both, their very presences only enhance the running game. Rarely will either Big Ben or Vick beat you in the air. It's only going to be a few times if ever in a season where either guy is going to throw the ball 30+ times, and the offense only gain 90 or so yards on the ground and their teams will win.

But in Vick's case, he brings that threat of running himself that forces defenses to not play the run the same, nor can they play the pass the same. You don't need to use a lot of 3-WR sets when you have Vick on the field, because he alone spreads out defenses.

In Big Ben's case, with Hines Ward and the emerging Heath Miller (who WAS the steal of the draft), if you play the run too hard, the Steelers have the ability and talent to make you hurt in the passing game. 50% of hte passes thrown (not caught, but thrown) to Hines Ward are first downs (Chad Johnson and Ernest Wilford are the only WRs that boast better numbers in that area). So the Steelers can hurt you and move the ball in the air.

So it's interesting that the two best running teams in the league need their QB probably more than any other player.
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.

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Postby The_Incomparable » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:46 am

Don't jump onto Miller's jock too soon man :wink: . He didn't show up until a few weeks ago, whereas 2nd round pick Odell Thurman has been playing a Pro Bowl caliber Middle Linebacker since the first game of the year for the Bengals. :D

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Postby Pudge » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:13 pm

Miller is going to be a Top 5 tight end in a few years. To me, he is just like Crumpler. His hands are just as good, he blocks well, and has the size and strength to be a factor after the catch.

He was a player that deserve to be picked in the Top 15 or so picks, but fell due to injury and the fact that not many teams needed a TE in round one. I have the feeling that the same is going to happen to Marcedes Lewis out of UCLA this year.

Making the Pro Bowl at TE is going to be very difficult over the next few years. Gates, Heap, Crumpler, McMichael, Witten, Daniel Graham, Shockey, Dallas Clark, L.J. Smith, and Miller are all 26 and under. It's really a shame for guys like Erron Kinney, Jerramy Stevens, Ben Troupe, etc. who are just as talented as those guys. And I'm assuming the college ranks are going to keep producing TEs of this caliber. I wouldn't be surprised if this era, looking back on it decades from now produces several HOF tight ends.

It's speculation, but 500 career catches in a few years will be a good benchmark for TE HOF inductees. And almost all of those guys I mentioned above are well on their way to that mark.

I predicted Thurman would win NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, but I think people will be looking back on this draft in a few years and really be like, "Oh man, we could have gotten Heath Miller there." One team in particular may be the Jaguars or Bengals.
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


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