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 Post subject: Vick on the same level as Matt Hasselbeck?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:38 pm 
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First off I am another ESPN mirgrater and while dealing with Eagles trolls I got fed up with all this talk about how bad of a passer Vick is and ect.. So I took about 5 minutes to adjust his stats to 450 pass atempts from his 321 last year and this is what I found:
Vick
Comp/Att Yrds Yrd/Att Tds Int
254/450 (56.4%) 3245 7.21 20 17

Hasselbeck
Comp/Att Yrds Yrd/Att Tds Int
279/474 (58.9%) 3382 7.14 22 15

That honestly shocked me that they were that close, anyone care to add some comments?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:07 am 
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Good post, that is very interesting. Could you imagine if we got a WR to step up the way Muhammed did for them last year?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Interesting play on numbers. I've never considered Hasselbeck to be more then an average quarterback. I'm amazed he's performed as well as he has for Seattle. If they want to get to the big game they'll need to draft a real quarterback.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:45 pm 
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I've never been too high on Hasselbeck. He's probably in the Top 10 among QBs in the league, but that's more because there's a significant dropoff after the first 7 or 8 guys.

He's a good starter, but he's nothing special as a QB. A team could win a Super Bowl with him at the helm, but they would probably need a great running game and a pretty solid defense.

And I don't see him doing that any time soon. He doesn't have that intangible that makes him a potentially great QB. He tried to show some moxy a few years ago, but it backfired on him (infamous coin flip statement), and since he's backed off a bit, which I think has helped.

He's 30 years old, so his skills will probably peak in the next year or two and then he'll probably be considered an "efficient veteran."

As for Vick, I think his passer rating is always going to hover between 75 and 85, which is basically where guys like Aaron Brooks, David Carr, Hasselbeck, and Jake Plummer sit on a year-to-year basis. It isn't the mark of a great QB, but basically means that if you have the talent in other areas of your team, is more than good enough to win a lot of games.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:34 pm 
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I found that extremely intresting and like you Pudge I do put Hasselbeck in that 9-10 range for QB's and to see that Vick is on that same level as a passer is very scary. Watching him this preseason I do think he will able to complete 60% sometime in his career and he could approach that upper 80's in QB rating. If he does that I think he truelly will become the biggest weapon on Offense in the NFL.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:06 pm 
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Hasselbeck's numbers and rating would be much higher if he had receivers who could catch the ball. The Seahawks led or were in the top 3 for dropped passes last season... and alot were in the red zone / end zone.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:20 pm 
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Also, it's hard to guess what Vick's numbers would be had he thrown that many passes. There's no way to determine if he would have continued completing the same percentage or not.

What we have to realize and accept is that Vick may not be a top notch passer yet but he's still a winner. If he's a winner without being a great passer now, what's it going to be like after he developes that aspect of his game?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:06 pm 
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Angry, by that same logic you could ask what if Vick had Wr's who could get open. Also Cap the point of that was to try and prove a point to troils that Vick isn't a below ave QB and I need something to support that and by adjusting the numbers the way I did I pretty much shut them all up for the time being. But yes I do agree with you that there is no way of telling if his numbers would have gone up or down with more pass attempts.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:22 pm 
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I know it's not a popular opinion, but I don't think that Vick will ever be a "top" passer. I'm looking at some of the other young passers coming up in the league in Vick's peer group, and I think all are going to surpass him or if they already are better will widen the gulf between themselves in terms of being a pure passer. These guys I'm looking at are Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Harrington, and potentially Grossman, Chris Simms, Philip Rivers, J.P. Losman, Boller, Drew Henson, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, and Charlie Frye. Not to mention throw in another half dozen or so players currently still in college and HS that will come into the league in the near future. All those guys I mentioned are like Vick, 26 years old and less, and I'm saying that over the next 5 years, probably 10+ of those 16 names I mentioned will be considered the top passers in the league like the elder guys like Manning, Brady, Favre, Delhomme, Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, Pennington, etc. are considered now.

So this is not to say I don't think Vick will improve, but if you're judging him based on his peers, for his entire career he's probably never going to be considered more than average to above average among starting QBs.

I also believe we are a few years away from seeing Vick win a game with his arm. I still consider Chris Chandler on his better days to be heads and heels above Vick in terms of a passer. You knew going into a game that if Chandler was forced to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the Falcons could still win, and did so vs. the Packers in 2001. Chandler was 2-1 as a Falcon when he threw 40 or more times in a game. Vick, thus far, is 0-1-1.

I'm just saying, that I don't foresee seing a boxscore with Vick at the helm saying that Vick threw the ball over 40 times, threw for over 300 yards and multiple TDs and the Falcons actually won the game.

I think Vick is going to have a career path similar to Randall Cunningham. He developed enough in his late 20s so that he was effective running the offense, but he didn't really become a good passer until later in his career when he could no longer use his legs. Interestingly enough, Cunningham didn't take the Eagles to the 2nd round of the playoffs until his 7th year in the league, which was the season after he suffered that horrendous knee injury.

Vick of course is already ahead of Cunningham in terms of success. And I do hope I'm absolutely wrong in that the Falcons will only take it to the next level dependent on a horrendous knee injury by Vick.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:37 am 
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I believe what Pudge said is the dead honest truth about Vick and his career. I don't see him turning into the Steve Young everyone thinks he should turn into. Vick is a unique once in a lifetime player that will do things people don't understand and have success at it. Vick wins and as long as he does that he'll have my support. He isn't my first choice nor would I build a franchise around him. But he wins and that is all that matters at the end of the day.

Chris Chandler, had he not been so injury prone would have been lights out over his career. But being stuck with McNair, having so many injuries in his Falcon days and then Mike Vick coming along Chandler never came close to his full potential. Shame too he was my favorite Falcon :).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:42 pm 
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Quote:
Angry, by that same logic you could ask what if Vick had Wr's who could get open


Hey, I'm not agruing with ya. I posted something similiar this past summer on the ESPN board reflecting if Vick had as many attempts as Manning. He would have been close to 30 td's and 4000 yards passing. I love stats, but the problem is you can fanagle any stat to make someone look good or bad.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:05 pm 
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I have some hope that Vick will become a proficient passer. I can see him getting to the point soon where he could throw the ball 30+ times, 300+ yds, and 2+ TDs. It's just a matter of him making good decisions, knowing where his receivers are going to be, and them getting open for him. We know he certainly has the arm to do it. If he needs to scramble/get out of the pocket in order to see his WRs better, then he should pop out there and make the passes in rythmn. I also feel that being in the same system, under the same OC, for a while will allow him to get comfortable to where he can break out as a passer. Let's just give him time and he will show us he can do it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:18 pm 
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If Vick throws for 30 TD's and 3500+yds in one of the next couple seasons you could easily consider him a top 3 QB in the league because he will always be looking to use his legs as long as he can run a 4.2-. Steve Young got a late start on his career due to backing up Montana for years & so he was forced to learn to throw first. Vick is starting at a young age & is now expected to win so he looks for what is there in front of his face & if that is some daylight, he's gonna breakout & run.

Oh, and let's not forget Young got to play in an all world offense. Rice, Taylor, Waters/Craig (whichever was there), and others will make any QB look great, much like Moss has done for his QB's.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:21 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
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Angry, by that same logic you could ask what if Vick had Wr's who could get open


Hey, I'm not agruing with ya. I posted something similiar this past summer on the ESPN board reflecting if Vick had as many attempts as Manning. He would have been close to 30 td's and 4000 yards passing. I love stats, but the problem is you can fanagle any stat to make someone look good or bad.


I agree with you a 100% on that, also I do not think (at least in the foreseeable future) Vick will have to throw the ball much over 375 times a year to win 10-12 games.


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