It is currently Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:12 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:08 pm 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26018
Location: North Carolina
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... s-thoughts

Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
April, 30, 2014
APR 30
7:10
PM ET
By Vaughn McClure | ESPN.com
RECOMMEND2TWEET10COMMENTS1EMAILPRINT
Some folks have criticized Atlanta Falcons general manager Thomas Dimitroff for the Julio Jones trade in 2011, saying that Dimitroff sacrificed team depth in the process.

Remember, he surrendered five picks to the Cleveland Browns to move up from 27th in the first round to sixth for Jones. And all was well until Jones went down with a season-ending foot injury last year. The Falcons' lack of depth got exposed in a 4-12 collapse a year after making it to the NFC title game.

[+] Enlarge Thomas Dimitroff
Scott Cunningham/Getty Images
Falcons GM Thomas Dimitroff has proven to be aggressive in making trades during the NFL draft.
Reflecting on the Jones trade Wednesday, Dimitroff saw no need to apologize.

"I would never question what we did in 2011," Dimitroff said. "I’m completely at ease at what we did as far as, you know, adding one of the most explosive players in this league and what he can do for us. And Julio was fantastic.

"Moving forward, as far as gaining knowledge about depth, depth is very important. There’s no question about it. Usually your depth, however, are backups. So when you have injuries, a lot of times, it’s difficult for the backups to step up and do what they need to do 100 percent and equally to what your starters do. I think it’s very important to keep in perspective what depth does for your organization and for your roster. It’s very important, no question about it. But I think we have to keep it in perspective."

Dimitroff's logic might be another indicator of his willingness to move up for a coveted player such as South Carolina defensive end Jadeveon Clowney, although staying pat at No. 6 is likely to give the Falcons a quality starter and impact player. He already has discussed trade scenarios with teams he declined to identify. He realizes trading up with a team like Houston, which holds the No. 1 overall pick, is going to cost at least a future first-round pick to go with that sixth pick and likely another pick.

Without naming a specific player, Dimitroff was asked if there was a player worth trading up for in this draft class.

"I think there are a number of good football players that we would consider," Dimitroff said. "We are always going through that scenario and discuss what truly is worth moving up for and potentially giving up picks. We’ve gone round to round with the statistics of where players play and how much they play and how often they start through different parts of the draft. We’re very calculated with our analytics approach to things. And I think, again, we feel very comfortable when go into the draft that we’re going to make the right decision, giving all the analytics that we have as well as our experiences in drafting."

The dissection process will continue over the next week in preparation for next Thursday's draft.

"We’re still projecting in the top 10,'' Dimitroff said. "And we’re going through countless scenarios. But, interestingly enough, with six people and not 20 to 32 different people I think that’s been interesting for us. It’s really allowed us to focus on, you know, what our needs are."

The most pressing needs are an offensive tackle and pass-rusher.

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:37 pm 
Offline
All-Pro
All-Pro

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 952
Think it's very important to distinguish depth from rotational players. A backup guard is depth. Important depth, but depth.

A 3rd and 4th WR, 2nd RB, 2nd TE, 3rd DT, 3rd and 4th DE, etc. are all players that can get substantial time even when the starter is healthy. Those are all real players you count on game in and game out, and it's that "depth" that you really have to have at top levels to win in the NFL. It also dramatically reduces the impact an injury has.

In my mind, you really have about 32 starters/rotational players on a football team, and they all need to be relevant.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:43 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:57 pm
Posts: 4638
I'd love to trade up but wouldn't give any #1 picks no matter what.

The biggest problem last years were our starters on both lines were not
much better than "depth players " we had a couple of non starters come in and start..... Last year we just started out with players not as good as this year since many got good experience playing last year!!

I wish all our rotational players were relevant!! Its probably one of our biggest problems.

_________________
"Everything Counts"
Cyril


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:52 am 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 pm
Posts: 4302
This article shows me that Dimitroff learned nothing from being in New England. Then again, his track record kind of proves it. If he believes this garbage that he's spouting, he's a train wreck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:59 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26018
Location: North Carolina
Yep, depending on schemes, there's 36-38 guys that play regularly on offense and defense. Here's our 37:

Quality Starter
QB Matt Ryan
WR Julio Jones
WR Roddy White
LB Sean Weatherspoon
CB Desmond Trufant
S William Moore

Good Rotation Player
RB Steven Jackson
RB Jacquizz Rodgers
OG Justin Blalock
OG Jon Asamoah
DE Jonathan Massaquoi
DT Paul Soliai
DT Jonathan Babineaux
DT Corey Peters
ILB Paul Worrilow
S Dwight Lowery

Adequate Rotation Player
RB Antone Smith
FB Patrick DiMarco
TE Levine Toilolo
WR Devin Hester
WR Harry Douglas
OT Sam Baker
OT Lamar Holmes
OG Mike Johnson
DE Tyson Jackson
DE Osi Umenyiora
DE Malliciah Goodman
OLB Kroy Biermann
OLB Joplo Bartu
CB Robert Alford
CB Robert McClain
CB Javier Arenas

Needs Upgrade:
QB Dominique Davis
TE Mickey Shuler
TE Andrew Szczerba
OC Peter Konz

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:18 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 pm
Posts: 4302
Hey Pudge, any chance you'd be willing to do the same thing, but for Seattle?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:33 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26018
Location: North Carolina
Ask, and ye shall receive…

Here's 38, since I wasn't sure whether Mayowa or Scruggs would be considered their top backup DE at this point:

Quality Starter
QB Russell Wilson
RB Marshawn Lynch
WR Percy Harvin
OT Russell Okung
OC Max Unger
DE Michael Bennett
ILB Bobby Wagner
CB Richard Sherman
S Kam Chancellor
S Earl Thomas

Good Rotation Player
RB Robert Turbin
WR Doug Baldwin
WR Sidney Rice
TE Zach Miller
DT Brandon Mebane
DE Cliff Avril
OLB K.J. Wright
CB Byron Maxwell

Adequate Rotation Player
QB Tarvaris Jackson
RB Christine Michael
FB Derrick Coleman
WR Jermaine Kearse
TE Anthony McCoy
TE Luke Willson
OG J.R. Sweezy
OT Michael Bowie
OG Alvin Bailey
OC Lemuel Jeanpierre
DT Jordan Hill
DT D'Anthony Smith
DT Tony McDaniel
DE Benson Mayowa
DE Greg Scruggs
OLB Malcolm Smith
OLB Bruce Irvin
CB Jeremy Lane
CB Tharold Simon

Needs Upgrade
OG James Carpenter

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:21 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 pm
Posts: 4302
Thanks Pudge. By your rankings, we really don't seem, "too far off." But there's an obvious discrepancy between the quality guys. Perhaps if we hadn't traded the better part of two drafts for one guy, we'd be much closer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:36 pm 
Offline
All-Pro
All-Pro

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:01 pm
Posts: 952
RobertAP wrote:
Thanks Pudge. By your rankings, we really don't seem, "too far off." But there's an obvious discrepancy between the quality guys. Perhaps if we hadn't traded the better part of two drafts for one guy, we'd be much closer.


The big difference by that ranking is the quality starter ranking, and goes to show just how big of a difference hitting on just a few guys makes.

If Jerry, Konz, and Mike Johnson had all become legit starters, we'd be roughly equivalent just by rankings. But also, just how much better would we be if those 3 were legitimately good starters? That's pretty much the difference in 4-12 and 9-7 last year, and having a lot of flexibility this year.

Too many misses on the lines.

Edit: Even if those 3 just were "good rotational players" which is probably more reasonable, the team is still very different.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 4:41 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:59 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: San Diego, CA
RobertAP wrote:
Thanks Pudge. By your rankings, we really don't seem, "too far off." But there's an obvious discrepancy between the quality guys. Perhaps if we hadn't traded the better part of two drafts for one guy, we'd be much closer.


Had we drafted well with what we had left we would have been closer. Say what you want about hte Julio trade but it isnt the reason we have Konz instead of Lavonte David, Lamar Holmes instead of T.Y. Hilton, Akeem Dent instead of K. J. Wright, or Jacquizz Rogers instead of Richard Sherman. Yeah we traded picks away for Julio but he was a sure fire game changer. Who's the say if we kept the picks we wouldnt have ended up with more "Adequate Rotation Players" than "Quality Starters"?

_________________
The Young Gunner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 6:49 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:15 pm
Posts: 4302
The Mattural wrote:
RobertAP wrote:
Thanks Pudge. By your rankings, we really don't seem, "too far off." But there's an obvious discrepancy between the quality guys. Perhaps if we hadn't traded the better part of two drafts for one guy, we'd be much closer.


Had we drafted well with what we had left we would have been closer. Say what you want about hte Julio trade but it isnt the reason we have Konz instead of Lavonte David, Lamar Holmes instead of T.Y. Hilton, Akeem Dent instead of K. J. Wright, or Jacquizz Rogers instead of Richard Sherman. Yeah we traded picks away for Julio but he was a sure fire game changer. Who's the say if we kept the picks we wouldnt have ended up with more "Adequate Rotation Players" than "Quality Starters"?

You're right, there's no telling. Our GM sucks at getting talent. So, he trades away all of our picks to get, "a sure thing." That approach will not work if the goal is to build a super bowl team. If we want to build a super bowl team, Dimitroff has to be better at using the picks that we have, rather than trading them all away for, "a sure thing."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:21 am 
Offline
Draught Guru
Draught Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am
Posts: 5029
How Much Could Scott Pioli Influence Atlanta's Draft Picks?

By Alec Shirkey @AShirkey on May 5 2014, 6:00p 6
USA TODAY Sports

Hopefully not all that much.

When former Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli was brought on board as an assistant to Thomas Dimitroff, the move was mostly met with hesitant approval.

Sure, Pioli had an incredibly checkered four-year tenure in Kansas City (though former head coaches Todd Haley and Romeo Crennel deserve just as much blame). But it's not as if he wasn't successful in his own right as one of the head talent evaluators during the New England golden years.

And the initial thought when he was hired as an assistant to Dimitroff, in the words of T.D. himself, was that Pioli would simply be another "voice at the table."

Free agency taught us otherwise, as the Falcons wound up signing three former Chiefs (Tyson Jackson, Jon Asamoah and Javier Arenas), all of whom were draft picks under Pioli. Clearly, he has more influence in this organization than your average member of the front office.

So with the draft set to begin on Thursday, the next logical question becomes what effect, if any, does Pioli have on this very important Falcons draft class?

What immediately stands out is that Pioli is not afraid of reaching on "project" players without much college production, such as Dontari Poe or Tyson Jackson. Character concerns (i.e. Justin Houston) were also not immediate disqualifiers.

Even more than all of this, however, Pioli's track record of drafting linemen was pretty horrendous. Asamoah was the only offensive lineman you could argue was a sound selection. Neither Jeff Allen nor Donald Stephenson panned out (they received ratings of -12.0 and -8.7, respectively from PFF last season), and the jury is still out on Rodney Hudson.

So how could this affect the Falcons? Well, if the team elects to not trade up for Jadeveon Clowney and stays put at sixth overall, Taylor Lewan would be a guy that compares to both Allen and Stephenson: an athletic finesse blocker with concerns about his ability to finish blocks.

Taking Pioli's presence into account, this perhaps explains why some draft analysts believe the Falcons are interested in Lewan over Jake Matthews (because Lewan certainly doesn't come across as a Dimitroff pick). Hopefully this does not end up being the case, because I personally am not sold on Lewan as a player at all. His off-the-field issues only heighten my concern.

In the end, however, I'd be surprised if Pioli has as much influence on the draft as he did in free agency. The Falcons seem set on moving up in the first round, which is of course Dimitroff's M.O. much more than it is Pioli's, and there's a lot riding on this year's class for the current regime. He can't let the new guy have all the fun.

What say you? Where do we maybe see evidence of Pioli's hand in this draft, if at all?

_________________
"what if there were no hypothetical situations?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:04 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2125
Location: Deepinthehearta
RobertAP wrote:
You're right, there's no telling. Our GM sucks at getting talent. So, he trades away all of our picks to get, "a sure thing?"


Hmm Apparently the numbers do not back you up. At the end of last season, the Falcons' percentage of draft picks still with the team since Dimitroff's first draft (65.2%) was tops in the NFL, and 82.6% of Falcons draftees since 2008 were still in the league, ranked fourth. That would seem to show he is pretty good a picking and probably why his job is safe.

How many fans like their GMs over the long run?

W

_________________
Fantasy League Champion 2010
Pick Em Co-Champion 2011

We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:12 pm 
Offline
Draught Guru
Draught Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:32 am
Posts: 5029
Wease wrote:
RobertAP wrote:
You're right, there's no telling. Our GM sucks at getting talent. So, he trades away all of our picks to get, "a sure thing?"


Hmm Apparently the numbers do not back you up. At the end of last season, the Falcons' percentage of draft picks still with the team since Dimitroff's first draft (65.2%) was tops in the NFL, and 82.6% of Falcons draftees since 2008 were still in the league, ranked fourth. That would seem to show he is pretty good a picking and probably why his job is safe.

How many fans like their GMs over the long run?

W



Im embarrassed to read that. honestly.

If this were 'evidence', it would have been long 'discarded'. good grief.

Look at the first 'metric'.. We kept 65.2% of Dimi's picks: while letting guys like Abe, Grimes, Lofton walk and kept guys like Jerry,Baker, etc. Even though were 'tops' ( which is ludicrous, what does that mean? #1? #2? ohhh USA Moron Today..) that means despite having 5 years back to backs were keeping the same sh*tty guys who don't improve. Which explains our post season failures, and why the Owner is publically putting said 'genius nuts' firmly on the Hot Seat. Riiiiight...

Then, 80% are 'still in the league'? Seriously? some guys 'still in the league' were drafted BEFORE Vegan Jeebus, and some other 'guys' are on practice squads.

I mean, really, this is sad. The guy ain't 'turrible' but he ain't exactly pulling the Patriot Picks, is all Im saying..

If Julio Jones can stay healthy, and he hits on SOME of his picks this year, and SOME of his 'projects' steps up, I'll give him a 75-80% grade, but if any of the above occurs, he is going to be looked at at below 50% , and will be summarily dismissed. :whistle: :whistle:

_________________
"what if there were no hypothetical situations?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:28 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:59 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: San Diego, CA
Wease wrote:
RobertAP wrote:
You're right, there's no telling. Our GM sucks at getting talent. So, he trades away all of our picks to get, "a sure thing?"


Hmm Apparently the numbers do not back you up. At the end of last season, the Falcons' percentage of draft picks still with the team since Dimitroff's first draft (65.2%) was tops in the NFL, and 82.6% of Falcons draftees since 2008 were still in the league, ranked fourth. That would seem to show he is pretty good a picking and probably why his job is safe.

How many fans like their GMs over the long run?

W


But how many of those players that TD drafted who are still with the team play postions that need to be upgraded?:

2008
1 3 Matt Ryan (Franchise QB)
1 21 Sam Baker T USC (Upgrade needed)
3 21 Harry Douglas WR Louisville (upgrade needed)
5 19 Kroy Biermann OLB Montana (Upgrade needed)

2009:
1 24 Peria Jerry DT (Horrible miss and should have been cut years ago)
2 23 William Moore S (Great pick)

2010:
1 - LB Sean Weatherspoon Missouri (Great Pick solid sarter)
2 - DT Corey Peters Kentucky (Great pick/Solid starter)
3 - OG Mike Johnson Alabama (Has been here four years and has yet to crack the starting line up so for right now he is a Question mark)
4- OK Joe Haley UNLV (Upgrade Needed)
5- CB Dominique Franks Oklahoma (Upgrade needed and he probably wont make it out of training camp)

2011:
1 Julio Jones (Beast and second best pick of his tenure)
3 Akeem Dent (Upgrade was needed and was beat out by a UDFA
5 Jacquizz Rodgers (a Contributor but will never be a starter)
6 Matt Bosher (Solid Starter)

2012:
2 Peter Konz (Upgrade Needed)
3 Lamar Holmes (Upgrade Needed)
5 Jonathan Massoqoui (Solid Depth)
Travian Robertson (rarely dresses for games and he might not make it out of camp)

and the jury is still out on the 2013 draft class but as of now it seems to be one of his better draft classes.

_________________
The Young Gunner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:28 pm 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26018
Location: North Carolina
Yeah, I think when measured against the league as a whole, Dimitroff is better than most. But is he elite? Is this team's ability to acquire talent among the best in the league?

I think the answer is no, regardless of how many metrics you can throw out there. Games started or player retention, etc. Player retention is probably mostly owed to stable coaching staff. That's a testament to TD that he's gotten 6 years out of Mike Smith, while other teams have hired 2-4 (possible more) coaches in that span. But it can be argued that's really a testament to Matt Ryan as opposed to Mike Smith.

I've seen the metrics on games started, and it's been shown that bad teams get more starts out of their draft picks than good ones:

http://falcfans.com/falcfans-weekly-apr ... more-11327


Again, I don't want to be dismissive of this because I'm confident the Falcons drafting is much better than many NFL teams. Dimitroff isn't Matt Millen, and he's certainly the best GM we've had in team history. No team drafts perfectly, but I think there's a perception that the Falcons talent acquisition is on par with teams like the Patriots or Ravens, who are often the standard in that arena, and I couldn't disagree more with that.

It's kinda same with with Dimitroff vs. other "elite" GMs as it is with Mike Smith as a head coach or Matt Ryan as a QB. Mike Smith is closer to Belichick than he is to Joe Philbin or whoever, but he and Belichick aren't in the same ballpark (as 2013 showed). Matt Ryan is in the Top 10, but there's still a sizable gap between him and Drew Brees or Tom Brady. And that gap is probably bigger than the one that exists between Ryan and say Matt Schaub or Carson Palmer.

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:57 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:02 pm
Posts: 6598
Location: Indianapolis IN
It's more about quality than players sticking on the roster. TD has failed at finding enough quality players.

_________________
Sometimes running the Mularkey offense makes me feel like I'm in a prison.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 5:36 pm 
Offline
Superstar
Superstar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:57 pm
Posts: 4638
"Pudge Wrote"
No team drafts perfectly, but I think there's a perception that the Falcons talent acquisition is on par with teams like the Patriots or Ravens, who are often the standard in that arena,

I don't see how anyone could think that!! We really blew it back when we had a pretty good team. We just seemed to stay still when we needed to be upgrading those second team players for those who could make the team stronger. We sat rather still for about 3 years then had last year's
meltdown. We'll see that it wasn't a fluke meltdown; as we'll have to work hard just to get back to 8-8 this year.

_________________
"Everything Counts"
Cyril


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Depth won't drive Dimitroff's thoughts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 11:04 am 
Offline
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
Purveyor of Truth & Justice
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 26018
Location: North Carolina
Cyril wrote:
Pudge wrote:
No team drafts perfectly, but I think there's a perception that the Falcons talent acquisition is on par with teams like the Patriots or Ravens, who are often the standard in that arena


I don't see how anyone could think that!!

Until this past year's 4-12 record, I think you were one of the people that had that perception Cyril... :wink:

_________________
"Vincere scis, Hannibal, victoria uti nescis" -- Maharbal, 216 B.C.E.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], ShooterMcGavin and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: