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 Post subject: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:58 pm 
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The Texans game is still in doubt, but they are leading. I don't see us winning another game this season, not with the way we are playing on both sides of the ball. That said, we might have a good shot at a Top 3 pick because even Jacksonville won today!

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Pass rusher please, no more of this journeyman type signings or drafting 4th-5th round talent with "potential".


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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:32 pm 
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mattlanta wrote:
Pass rusher please, no more of this journeyman type signings or drafting 4th-5th round talent with "potential".


Your damn right!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:00 pm 
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mattlanta wrote:
Pass rusher please, no more of this journeyman type signings or drafting 4th-5th round talent with "potential".

We need a, "complete," 4-3 defensive end. Someone who can hold up at the point of attack against the run, someone who has the speed to take the edge on a pass rush, and someone who can out muscle an OT from time to time. Clowney is that guy. At the beginning of the year, I didn't think there was any way that we'd be picking in the top 4... If he's there, we have to take him.

Unless you want to run a 3-4 defense... In that case, Clowney would be a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:40 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
mattlanta wrote:
Pass rusher please, no more of this journeyman type signings or drafting 4th-5th round talent with "potential".

We need a, "complete," 4-3 defensive end. Someone who can hold up at the point of attack against the run, someone who has the speed to take the edge on a pass rush, and someone who can out muscle an OT from time to time. Clowney is that guy. At the beginning of the year, I didn't think there was any way that we'd be picking in the top 4... If he's there, we have to take him.

Unless you want to run a 3-4 defense... In that case, Clowney would be a mistake.


We are three only because Tampa has not played yet I just have a hard time believeing they would pass on Clowney, but I do agree if he is there you have to draft Clowney.

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:52 am 
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Who gives a crap if the guy is complete. If he can get pressure on the QB, then that's all that matters. The complete DE doesn't exist in today's NFL, not since Michael Strahan slimmed down like 8 years ago.

You get paid to rush the QB. So the Falcons should look for someone that can rush the QB. The run be damned.

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:26 am 
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You must have missed today's game... or the San Francisco game in the playoffs. The run has killed us.

I understand the need to get after the QB. It's a no brainer. But this is what I'm talking about when I say that we need to stop with the hybrid crap. If you want to run a 4-3 offense, you need your defensive ends to be good at both defending the run, and getting after the QB. If you don't like that style of play, then we need to switch to a 3-4, where the DE's are primarily there to occupy the offensive line, and the OLB are there to attack the QB. The hybrid thing, which plugs players into these roles that do not fit these roles, has been a failed experiment. Look at how god awful our defense is. It has been this way for a while.

This is a chicken or the egg type deal. Did the bad players come first, or did the bad scheme come first? Bad scheme will make players look bad, and bad players will make the scheme look bad. But you have to pick a scheme. You have to decide how you are going to approach building your defensive line. Is it any wonder that our defense looks lost out there? It's being pulled in all different directions. What kind of player should Dimitroff target to improve the defensive line? What's the plan for the defensive line? As it stands, it's an impossible situation.


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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:21 am 
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IMO the players were here first and that's when we started playing hybrid.

Robert the players come first. Bad players make everything look bad; and its hard to get good players to make anything look bad. There was kinda a positive feeling about the hybrid last year. (I think)

I would also like to just build a 3-4 and make it work. Just as we're the most disappointing team this year we could be the most improved next year!!

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:23 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
You must have missed today's game... or the San Francisco game in the playoffs. The run has killed us.

I understand the need to get after the QB. It's a no brainer. But this is what I'm talking about when I say that we need to stop with the hybrid crap. If you want to run a 4-3 offense, you need your defensive ends to be good at both defending the run, and getting after the QB. If you don't like that style of play, then we need to switch to a 3-4, where the DE's are primarily there to occupy the offensive line, and the OLB are there to attack the QB. The hybrid thing, which plugs players into these roles that do not fit these roles, has been a failed experiment. Look at how god awful our defense is. It has been this way for a while.

This is a chicken or the egg type deal. Did the bad players come first, or did the bad scheme come first? Bad scheme will make players look bad, and bad players will make the scheme look bad. But you have to pick a scheme. You have to decide how you are going to approach building your defensive line. Is it any wonder that our defense looks lost out there? It's being pulled in all different directions. What kind of player should Dimitroff target to improve the defensive line? What's the plan for the defensive line? As it stands, it's an impossible situation.

I think you have a very antiquated view of this. When DEs in today's game are good vs. the run, it's not because they are stout at the point of attack. It's because they get penetration and can make plays in the backfield. Take for instance, one of the better 4-3 defensive ends vs. the run the past few years has been Jason Pierre-Paul. It's because JPP is able to get in the backfield and make plays, with 8 tackles for loss in both 2011 and 2012, and particularly in 2012 that was the 2nd best of any 4-3 DE (behind only Michael Bennett, another good run-defender). Just look at John Abraham, who when we picked him up in 2006, the knock was he was ineffective vs. the run. Well over 7 years in Atlanta, Abe's run defense was rarely an issue. Why? Because he got penetration and made plays in the backfield. Really the only time Abe struggled vs. the run was when the read option came into the mix in 2011, where he could get caught out of position.

Again, look at Osi. Notoriously bad vs. the run, yet this year, his production there has been pretty good.

If Clowney is added, his success vs. the run won't be because he's stout at the point of attack, it's going to be because he is disruptive and consistently can penetrate.

Run defense can be improved in several ways:

1. Get a good MLB. If Worrilow continues to develop, he could be that player.
2. Get better at DT. The problem is that Peters and Babs are good run defenders, but their primary backup Jerry is not. You need to get better guys in the rotation.
3. Offense also plays a significant factor. The more points put on the board, the less the opponent will run.

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:44 pm 
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In my opinion, you don't have to get lots of TFL's, or even tackles to be an effective run defending DE. What you need to do is be able to do is take away the edge, stand up the OT trying to move you, etc. Getting penetration is fantastic, unless it takes you out of the play. I would sooner have my defensive line consistently make a wall and let the LB's make the tackle rather than looking for penetrating defensive linemen.

I think we simply have different views of what the defensive line should be, and again, that's fine because there are a lot of ways to be successful in the NFL. That said, the Falcons' current formula isn't working. I think we need to focus on either 3-4 or 4-3 and draft/acquire players that fit that mold. Once we have players who are good at either of those schemes, we can alter the scheme a bit to do some hybrid things. If we continue to adopt the philosophy of, "throwing it together," I think we can expect more of the same. If you don't have a plan/goal in mind, I think it's impossible to do what needs to be done to make things work.


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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:32 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
In my opinion, you don't have to get lots of TFL's, or even tackles to be an effective run defending DE. What you need to do is be able to do is take away the edge, stand up the OT trying to move you, etc. Getting penetration is fantastic, unless it takes you out of the play. I would sooner have my defensive line consistently make a wall and let the LB's make the tackle rather than looking for penetrating defensive linemen.

I'm just saying the idea that a player can both be a very good pass rusher and that sort of run defender isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's not a common occurrence.

You talk about making a choice about whether you want to be a 3-4 or 4-3 scheme. And I think you have to make a choice about what you want your DEs and DTs to be. Do you want them to play the run or do you want them to get after the QB. There's a reason why 4-3 teams typically rotate 7-8 DL every game, and have guys that are primarily run defenders, and have guys that are nickel specialists. If you're going to get a guy like Jared Allen that is going to play 95% of the snaps, then that's great. But it certainly isn't a requirement. I don't want to use a Top 10 pick on a guy like Bruce Irvin or Robert Mathis that is a liability vs. the run. But at the end of the day if he's getting 10-15 sacks per year, I can live with that over the idea that he's a complete player that plays the run well but only gets 6-8 sacks.

I don't quite get why you're so obsessed with the scheme. You can play any scheme if you have the talent. The Falcons were a strict 4-3 under BVG, but they were very conservative. Didn't play a lot of press coverage, mixed quite a bit of zone and weren't blitz happy. That scheme is similar to what Smitty ran in Jacksonville. That scheme works fine if you can reliably get pressure with your front 4. The Falcons didn't have that sort of front 4, and thus that scheme didn't work quite as well as it did in J-ville.

The issue in Atlanta has 100% to do with talent not scheme. That has always been the Falcons issue.

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I agree, the talent has been an issue. But here's what I'm getting at... The front office hasn't been concerned with the talent being an issue. They are content with plugging whatever players they have into their hybrid scheme. They cut our best defensive lineman loose and replaced him with someone that they felt was the same type player. It was a lateral move at best. They haven't done anything to improve the line, and I think it's because they don't know what they want to do. It seems like they believe that if they have good cornerbacks that the line will eventually do its job.

The same is true of the offensive side of the ball. We are plugging in tackles as guards, guards as tackles, and whatever else doesn't make any sense. So long as we have a good QB, a bruising RB, and WRs, everything will be fine.

Though we've gotten results for the last several years, I can't help but hate the way that this front office does things.


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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:47 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
I agree, the talent has been an issue. But here's what I'm getting at... The front office hasn't been concerned with the talent being an issue. They are content with plugging whatever players they have into their hybrid scheme. They cut our best defensive lineman loose and replaced him with someone that they felt was the same type player. It was a lateral move at best. They haven't done anything to improve the line, and I think it's because they don't know what they want to do. It seems like they believe that if they have good cornerbacks that the line will eventually do its job.

The same is true of the offensive side of the ball. We are plugging in tackles as guards, guards as tackles, and whatever else doesn't make any sense. So long as we have a good QB, a bruising RB, and WRs, everything will be fine.

Though we've gotten results for the last several years, I can't help but hate the way that this front office does things.

I agree with most of that, but again, I don't see how that has anything to do with the scheme. It has everything to do with the complacency of the front office. They would be equally complacent regardless of the scheme.

You seem to be suggesting that existence of the hybrid scheme because the team is "lazy" and can take lesser talent and plug it into the scheme because their scheme doesn't require upper level talent.

IMO, the existence of the hybrid scheme is because it is a stark contrast to what we played before under BVG, which was a very vanilla 4-3 defense. Nolan's scheme would be much more variable and exotic with its ability to mix up fronts and coverages in order to confuse the offense. And it worked to great effect in 2012, but not so much in 2013, which is not a surprise because the Falcons did the same thing they did back in 2002-03 when they were a 3-4 under Wade Phillips, and didn't upgrade their talent. Why? Because they fell into the exact trap of complacency, which a lot of teams do which is to assume a good bend but don't break defense will continue to bend and not break, especially when said defense has middling talent and appeared to be overachieving in that first year.

But the reason why the Falcons did not choose to make significant upgrades to their talent on on defense is based largely off their need-based draft strategy and "fiscal responsibility" when it comes to sign other teams free agents thanks partly to their big whiffs in recent years as well as the impending contract of Matt Ryan making them a little more tight-fisted.

And by need, that of course means that in the early rounds where the majority of talent can be found, the Falcons solely target starters. In Round 1, they are only going to target a player/position that will come in immediately and start Day 1. It became clear that when the Falcons stood pat at CB in free agency, that CB was going to be their #1 pick. We still held out some hope that the Falcons would target another position and then look to go CB in Round 2 because of the depth of the draft, but that was for naught. And then in Round 2, they almost always target a guy that will compete for a starting job, preferably a guy that will also start Day 1. But because the Falcons didn't have another obvious hole to fill in Round 2, they could use it on Alford, who like Konz & Moore will open next season as a starter.

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 Post subject: Re: At this moment we would be picking 4th in the Draft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:04 am 
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Complacency? We brought in Osi who will be the NFL Defensive player of the year :whistle:

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