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at this point, with Abe less then 100%, aren't you inviting reinjury by going through practices, or do you simply have to get him involved even if he is 70% to keep him from getting rusty or tight?

Of course, if we had a HC that could accurately assess 'risk/reward' and read his team, this problem never exists

It's one and done situation. If Abe is cleared to play, then he plays. Period.

I think you misunderstood my question...Im just saying having him 'running around' 4 days before we need him is that worth reaggravating it? cleared to play,or cleared to practice?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0sPZyVY5No


vs say letting him sit, because at this point in his career he shouldn't really 'need' it...When they say he 'reports to practice' how much running around is involved?

Fun Gus seriously enough is enough. Stop going on about this and have a clean mindset. You sound like a grumpy old man or for better terms, a catholic school girl. Big game is on Sunday and talk about the actual game.

for the record I am a grumpy old catholic girl

Listen, Emmitt: let me give you a little advice. You speak with the refreshing naivety of a young man with many years in front of him. Now I know I'm not as wisened or experienced as Cyril or BnB, but I've been around the block a time or two. I jumped on this bandwagon in 1998 and have ridden this rollercoaster since. Let me tell you when 'enough is enough': for this year it is winning a playoff game. Anything else is failure.

As you get a little older, you get a lot more cynical. The definition of this is "Expressing jaded or scornful skepticism or negativity" and I agree I could get on anyones nerves, and usually do: but this team and franchise hasn't given me enough postseason reasons to grant the benefit of the doubt anymore. At least not since our former QB was here and we actually won a playoff game.

Now you may think me bitching about Smith keeping 55 in the game too late, and him getting 'injured' doesn't have a bearing on this game, and you would be wrong. What exactly am I supposed to 'focus' on and have a 'clear mindset' about? The fact is certain decisions effect this game. I was asking a quesiton about practicing a guy who has been injured 4 days before a playoff game. Good idea or bad? What happens in a 'practice' like this? Is it pads on? Full speed? Do you think we have ever lost an impact player in this fashion before? Why not discuss it? Because it irritates you?

I mean, what has the past taught us? Is Mike Smith ( or any other HC) completely 'honest' about this sorta stuff anyways? I mean, this rather looks like a smokescreen. Tell everyone the day BEFORE you have to release the IR that Abe is ready to return to practice, then for the next three days put a 'LP' next to his name. With the playoff game staring me in the face, considering our past, I dont think Im being too much of a negative Nancy asking.

And really, comparing me to PB21? Cmon man. I aint Serbian.

now get back to writing and quit bitching about my bitching!

Shanahan's an idiot for putting the one game over RGIII's career. His knee was clearly shot in the third quarter; Seattle wasn't buying any threat of run or accurate pass, so what do you gain by leaving him in? Again, it was clear his knee was in real trouble. Hopefully he's healthy for next season, but that was a lot more stress than his knee needed. Also, the Cutler comparison is simplistic: Cutler got crap because he has horrific charisma, not because people by default question a QB's injuries. How much press has there been about Ponder's bruise?

Wilson is far less effective in the pocket; hmm, maybe because he's so much shorter than his linemen? There's a reason very few short QBs are successful, and why few of the modern ones tend to be pocket passers.

This didn't ruin RG3's career. People are way overreacting. He's going to be fine. Maybe his 2013 season is not as good as it could/would be if he didn't spend all of the off-season re-habbing, but the advances we've made in modern medicine, reconstructive knee surgery (and I've read that RG3 may not even need it), is really small potatoes, practically a walk in the park. We've come a long way in the past 7 years since Daunte Culpepper. And similarly to McNabb, probably the main reason why Culpepper "lost it" had less to do with his knee, and more to do with changing systems. That's not going to happen in DC. Well...you never know with Snyder...

Again, I don't get all of the "Shanahan is clearly wrong..." or "Shanahan is an idiot..." talk. He's an idiot for trying to win the game? Really? I mean people can second guess all they want, but I don't fault Shanahan for going with his gut. And his gut told him that 60% of RG3 is better than 100% of Kirk Cousins in a must win game. He's seen every snap and throw both have made as professionals, and thus I think he's uniquely qualified that his gut is a bit more accurate than any of ours sitting on our couches. The team doctors cleared him. I've heard people criticize him for not "protecting his QB," but the fact is he's paid to win football games. The team doctors are paid to protect the players and their safety.

It wasn't inevitable that he was going to do serious damage to the knee. He made it through 2 games on the bum wheel and 80% of a 3rd. All he needed was to play 11 more snaps and they could have won the game.

Look, I don't have a problem with people second-guessing and questioning the decision. I don't have a problem with disagreement or criticism of Shanhan. But it's the consternation of it all that people have confounds me. I get it, we live in a media-obsessed culture with a 24-hour news cycle, and that was the big story and controversy yesterday because the talking heads needed something to talk about, and shrugging your shoulders and saying "Eh, whatever" just doesn't make for as compelling TV/radio. But for me, it's really people making a mountain out of a molehill.

Shanahan has a history of playing injured guys, remember the superbowl when T Davis had migraines and said he couldn't see? Mike guilted him into playing.

Also where is the league in all of this, they fine guys for even the most slightly questionable hit, yet a clearly injured guy is sent out to get injured more and nothing. Hypocrisy.

Firstly, that Super Bowl was 14 years ago, well before any of the things we know about head trauma and brain injuries came to the fore. What people don't realize is that most of this stuff with concussions has only been brought up due to the wars in Afghanistan/Iraq where thousands of troops came back with traumatic brain injuries, and finally made people start to give a s***. So it's really only been since 2004/05, so you can't count it against a guy that did something "bad" before that point.

Secondly, Davis won the MVP that game in one of the more closely contested Super Bowls of the past 20 years, so I think you could certainly argue that what Shanahan got from Davis that game (160 yards) was worth the risk.

Thirdly, Jason Snelling suffers from migraines as well as Percy Harvin. Is there a point? Probably not, but it's worth mentioning.

Fourthly, you're right about the hypocrisy, but that's not on Shanahan, that's on the league. The league is only out there for player safety due to the risk of liability, mainly due to head trauma because of the nascent links it has to psychosis, depression, etc.

Justin Strzelcyk didn't drive 90 mph into oncoming traffic because of a bum wheel. Shane Dronett didn't commit suicide because he tore his ACL back in 2000. Otherwise Mark Schlereth and his 20 something knee/back surgeries would be locked up and put in a straight jacket because he'd be the most dangerous guy on the planet.

But clearly, I must be the one taking the crazy pills here because I seem to be the only one in the world that isn't trying to throw Shanahan under the bus.

So what? does that make the point any less valid? The man has a reputation for playing injured players. The day of the playoff the most respected sideline DR told the world Shanahan was a liar, congenitally, and one-upped it by saying that he was the one that got RG3 pulled, that the coach wanted him back in. Put those two together, and then add in the fact that this isn't some WR or OLB, but it is thier franchise QB, and I think this makes it a much bigger story.

Pudge, suppose his 'gut' was right, and he decided to 'ride and die' and RG3, and he pulls it out: what was going to happen next week? Cousins would have been playing anyways, becuase there is no way he gets off the Ga Dome turf on anything but a stretcher. So I dont get the 'risk/reward'. Well, I guess I do, because anything 'could' happen in the NFCCG, and you gotta get there. So I 'get it'. But the risk is maybe really messing up RG3's legs to the point that next season and subsequent seasons are screwed..

As you get older you don't get more cynical. You are a bit less prone toward absolutes perhaps.

yeah, I'll believe that when I see it

Does saying, "Never say never" make you cynical or disinclined toward absolutes?

well, that's a fair point. but I think where we may have a difference is in the definition of 'absolute'. Is what we are getting from Flowery Branch and DLed 'absolutely' true? I understand 'never say never' but also 'fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice and we wont be fooled again!'

Im pretty much absolutely sure that we dinged up ol Abe and he is not going to have that extra 'oomph' that we need for this game . Allright, I'll let it go.

At least then, Shanahan would have a week to prep Mr. Cousins for the start, as opposed to throwing him into the fire midway through a game.

The reward is making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs, and keeping that hope alive.

I honestly believe this is all hindsight clarity. Because if you were to put yourself in Shanahan's shoes at the time, I don't see how you can be that critical of his decision. Here's what Mike Shanahan's shoes feel like...

You're coming off a 5-11 season. Not because Rex Grossman is terrible. Rex Grossman was largely average in 2011, you were 5-11 because of the overall talent level of your team.

You get this dynamic and magnetic athlete by the name of RG3. When Cam Newton spoke of becoming an entertainer and an icon, he was actually talking about RG3. You've literally been an irrelevant team for 20 whole years and now the entire city/region is energize by this kid.

You lose your best defensive player (Brian Orakpo) in the season opener, and frankly besides RG3, he's your best overall player.

You're sitting at 3-6 record. You get caught slipping by the media because you basically said the season was over. You said that because you know there hasn't been a team that made the playoffs at 3-6 in 16 years. In fact, a team that was 3-6 at one point in the year has made the playoffs only 4 or 5 times in history since the merger.

And then RG3 comes strolling into your office the next day and says, "Coach, I got this."

And you're thinking to yourself, "Ok, maybe we'll finish strong, maybe get to .500 and give us a positive note to build off in 2013."

And guess what happens, over the final 7 games, he basically becomes the best QB in the league. He leads the league over the final 7 games with a 119.4 passer rating. Him and Alfred Morris (2nd only to Peterson in that span with 820 rushing yards) basically carry your team into the playoffs.

RG3 hurts his knee 3 weeks before the end of the season. He misses 1 game, which your backup Kirk Cousins helps you win against Cleveland. Then with 2 must wins, RG3 guts through the injury and helps you win the games.

So now you're in the playoffs because mainly this guy. He's got a brand new knee brace, he's healthy enough to practice as the doctors say. And he starts hot, building a 14-0 lead.

He struggles a bit in the 2nd quarter, but you were more concerned about the defense not getting off the field, as you were only able to run a dozen offensive plays that quarter. You figure, we'll check him out at halftime and we'll get it going back in the 3rd quarter.

He again struggles, misses some throws. But your defense is getting stops, so you still are holding onto your lead. And you're thinking, I just need 1 more scoring drive, and I might be able to put this thing away. I don't need him to be the guy, I just need him to convert some 3rd downs. And you think about that moment 2 months ago when he said, "Coach, I got this."

4th quarter begins, and another no dice series, and then Seattle scores. They're up 21-14 with 7 minutes left. You're thinking, "I need 1 good drive, tie this thing up, maybe go into OT, who knows, but I just need one good drive."

You haven't seen RG3 throw a good pass in 38 minutes. That might/should be enough to pull the plug. But then again, you think about that moment in your office from 2 months ago, "Coach, I got this."

And so you say, "Hell, he defied 16 years of odds. I can give him 7 minutes."

But a minute later, the knee gives. And your season is over. Kirk comes in, and doesn't do squadoosh, which should answer any questions about how he could have won the game for you.

And then all you hear for the next 48 hours is, "Mike, why didn't you pull RG3?" "Mike, did you think about pulling RG3 in the 2nd quarter after the interception?" "Coach, what about the 3rd?" Blah blah f**** blah.

And you're Mike Shanahan, and you're thinking, "Seriously guys? Would you ask me to pull John Elway for Gary Kubiak? Are you f**** kidding me? In the 2nd quarter? You're saying, I should have pulled him after 2 bad series?! Who has ever pulled their starting franchise QB in the 3rd quarter of a contested game that they were winning? What is this precedent that people are saying I should've been aware of that suggests that what I did was the wrong thing? The precedent that I do know is winning football games. And I believed that RG3 gave me the best shot to do so. You are free to disagree with me, but the bling on my two hands is telling me that your opinion is dogshit."

That's of course what he's thinking, but he winds up saying:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... eep-going/

Hopefully the knee is fine and it doesn't reduce his shelf life.

Andrews publicly questioned Shanahan in the weeks leading up to the game. How often do you see that?

It's not a question of whether or not 60% of RG 3 could get it done: he couldn't. Every single thing about his movement indicated that he couldn't do s*** with the ball.
It wasn't a question of if his knee went out, it was a question of when. 3rd quarter conversation with a orthopedic surgeon: "They need to get him off the field."

ultimately, do I care? not really.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/0 ... 35661.html

"A torn ACL typically requires a rehabilitation period of nine to 12 months, although some players don't return to full health until their second season after the injury.

On the other hand, Adrian Peterson, who returned about eight months after tearing an ACL nearly broke the NFL's single-season rushing record."

Andrews, on retainer from the Redskins,



Coach Shanahan looks at me like, ‘Is he OK?’ and I give him the ‘Hi’ sign as in, ‘He’s running around, so I guess he’s OK.



Andrews changed his tune on Monday.
“Coach Shanahan didn’t lie about it, and I didn’t lie,” Andrews said


Only in D.C can they shovel this horsesh*t and expect people to buy it.

This is a franchise player who appeared to be in peril to everyone except the coach. The doctor said the day before the game that it “scared the hell out of him” to see Griffin out there running around. How much more does management need to hear?

I mean, it's not like they aren't known for doing crap like this. Riddle me this: where was the most awesome, honest orthopedic surgeon on retainer on Sept 11th when thier longsnapper broke his arm in the first half against the Saints, and begged RG3 to not make him have to snap a punt?


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footb ... -1.1156753

Fact is that they left him out there too long and it is likely to negatively impact their next season. Unless Rg3 can make an AP like recovery.

If memory serves Chuck Smith played a whole game after tearing his ACL versus GB in Milwaukee in a game that sometimes is pointed to as the launching point of the BF legend.Pivotal play of the game Brett evades Chuck by inches to score. Chuck came back and had a great career--cut somewhat short by knee trouble. Are any of these things related? Who knows? Griffin will probably be back and be fine and, obviously, won't hold anything against MS. The way they are using him is going to cut his career short anyway.

your right about that. And it is a damn shame.

If I was the NFLPA and the league? I would revoke 'Dr Andrews' license to operate in the NFL immediately, then I levy some MASSIVE fines against Shanahan. Besides the obvious keeping the guy in there too long, your job as a coach isn't to let the player decide to tell you when he is 'okay' or not. Then I hit ol Kyle Shanahan with a smaller fine and a warning: we are watching you, buddy. Calling a naked bootleg late in the third qtr with a guy who's knees are held together with duct-tape is not going to go over well. Wise up, junior.

What management needs to hear is whether or not he's cleared to play. If Andrews was so worried about Griffin, then he along with the rest of the highly paid and trained doctors and trainers on staff or retainer shouldn't have cleared to play, or practice. That's one of the things that is interesting to me, if Griffin was soooo hurt, then how come team officials cleared him to practice ALL THREE days. He wasn't limited in practice either, he fully participated.

We need less feelings from Dr. Andrews, and more of your world-reknown medical prognoses.


Why would you say that? If Griffin has the normal 8-month recovery time before he can play, that means he has to sit out maybe a month of the season right? Then Kirk Cousins can just come in and the Redskins will have an even better shot at winning games, right?


People IMO over-exaggerate the long-term damage/impact this will have on RG3's career. Look, if he continues to accumulate injuries like this, it may shorten his career, but not in his 20s. Look at Roethlisberger, McNair, and Vick. It's going to take way, way, way more than this to really shorten RG3's career. He may not make it to age 38, but at this point there's really no reason to think he won't play another 10-12 years in the NFL at least.

It's the NFL and they need something to hype to last us from March through July. Last year, it was Tebow, Peyton Manning, and BountyGate, and this year it'll be RG3's rehab, Tebow, and something else.

Talk about an overreaction...

So should Mike Smith also be fined for not pulling Chris Owens immediately after he suffered a concussion? Owens vs. Denver suffered a concussion on the 3rd play of that game, and managed to play 11 more snaps before he was pulled from that game. That amounted to about 7 additional minutes of game time before his final snap (roughly 20 minutes of actual time) before that concussion was diagnosed and he was sat for Dominique Franks.

a concussion vs a broken limb? Does Mike Smith have the 'rep'? Playoff game?

You've obviously gone to the Roger Goodell school of punishment, which means let's make a public example out of somebody that serves no purpose other than a good PR move.

The point was that this happens all of the time. To varying degrees, but it's a common occurrence. The system is not perfect. Doctors may misdiagnose a player, coaches may be more focused on the next play call than the fact that a specific player may have suffered a serious injury, players may mask their injuries like say by trying to walk it off, or they may lie to doctors/trainers about their symptoms for selfish reasons (as RG3 did) so that they don't get pulled out of the game.

What is punishing Shanahan/Andrews & Co. going to accomplish? Is it going to stop this from happening ever again? No. The only way you could do that is by having doctors and EMTs rush the field after every snap to give a full check-up/physical exam to all 22 players on the field.

So Shanahan has a rep? Why because this happened 14 years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/26/sport ... e-mvp.html

This is such a mundane issue. The false uproar reminds me of the whole BountyGate thing, when people were up in arms over that, when it's been the dirty little secret for the NFL for 40 years. Six months before those punishments were handed down, Tony Romo broke his ribs, and DeAngelo Hall said that the Redskins would hit him in the ribs. It created a minor controversy, but likely only because D Hall said it. Had London Fletcher said it, it would have just been a blurb on the back page. But then the Saints get smacked, and then people are saying, "How despicable?! What sort of human being would purposefully injure another for money?" Yeah, the same type that would become a professional athlete in one of the world's most violent sports.

Sorry for hijacking this thread.