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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:23 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Not being privy to what goes on in the locker room or in meetings, it's hard to say. Maybe he does address issues and show fire in his belly. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for two reasons. Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco. I don't see Ryan's teammates throwing him under the bus like they do in NY and in Baltimore. As a matter of fact, Ryan is praised for his leadership skills and hard work by his teammates. I guess that makes them good boy scouts too?... Even the best QB's, Tom Brady, Brees or Aaron Roger can't stray from the game plan that is laid out to them by the coaches.



I disagree. Tom Brady and Drew Brees can pretty much tell thier coaches to put in a screen or two at this point. If they had coaches that took one play off the table, a play that they are confident and competant enough to do , you mean to tell me they couldn't challenge that? :shock: Nonsense. QB's in todays NFL can get thier coaches fired if they want to. THEY hold the cards, not the coaches. That's not saying they should all disregard thier coaches, but lets be real: you put 100 mil in a guy and his voice is louder then the coaches, because in todays NFL, they move around so much. This ain't 1974 anymore.

I gave Matt Ryan the benefit of the doubt until Jan 8th 2012. Not any more. I dont need press clippings about how he heals cleft palate babies or how him and his old lady help spay and neuter cats. Because besides what thier teammates say, you know what Flacco and Sanchez do that Ryan doesn't?? THEY WIN PLAYOFF GAMES. Of course thier teammates throw them under the bus: they dont accept mediocrity. They get pissed off. You can see it in thier swagger, the way they interact on the sidelines. The way they interact with thier coach. I dont see it. I didnt see it in the playoff game here last year, and I've heard and read how Matt looked in the last playoff game.

The coaching excuses are just that: excuses. Matt Ryan needs to put on his big boy pants and do what Flacco and Sanchez has done. If that means he will get scorn from the precious teammates, so be it. This aint a Disney Film. It's the NFL. Man up Matt Ryan.

Like I said, Matt Ryan played like a pussy in New Jersey. A flat out pussy. That's on Matt, not Smith.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Fun Gus - if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone pissed in your Cheerios this morning. :D

Matt Ryan is not immune from being criticized nor should he be. I agree, he needs to play better. I do disagree that all the blame falls at his feet though. There is enough blame to spread around.


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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:59 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Fun Gus - if I didn't know any better, I'd say someone pissed in your Cheerios this morning. :D

Matt Ryan is not immune from being criticized nor should he be. I agree, he needs to play better. I do disagree that all the blame falls at his feet though. There is enough blame to spread around.



:lol:

Seriously, I've been disgesting this for awhile. Y'all know Im Team Matty. But, the night before the MNF Saints game, coming off cliching a postseason game, I posted a thread about 'expectations'. And I said before THAT nightmare even began was that I needed to see certain things. But then the playoff game happened. To watch Matt Ryan get shut out in that fashion took away my 'benefit of the doubt'. It's one thing to lose to a superior opponent, I can accept that. The way it was lost destroyed any of the 'coaching' argument, because Matt Ryan checked out. That aint on the Coach. By this time in his career, he should know to show up. He doesn't need his coach to help him/tell him to do it. HE should know it. He does not know it.

And to get this back to the threads original intent, I dont see Koetter as the guy that is going to change that, and that is a poor reflection on Coach Smith. If your serious about not getting the same results, then you should not keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. IMO, what we needed to take Ryan to the next level was a coach enamored more of a WCO or at least a guy who would put his own identity on the offense, because what Ryan needs now is something different. We can throw around meaningless terms like 'vertical offense' all day, but getting another timid OC that throws in a couple bubble screens and feeding an aging Turner does not send the message to Ryan that something needs to change. It sends the message that we just need to 'tweak' the scheme. And if what is read is truthful, it was reported Ryan was in on the hire, he was consulted and signed off on it. Who knows if that was just FB posturing?

If I had just seen one score in garbage time in Jersey, I may feel differently. But I lost all benefit of the doubt on whether or not the 'coaching' was holding Ryan back, or the fact that he was taught to play scared for the last 3 years and because his mommy bottle fed him when he didn't even put up one goddamned score on the board. Thats on Matt alone. :beef:

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Frustration and being a Falcon fan go hand and hand don't they? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Fun gus, I know you're a "Team Matt" guy, but you're falling into the trap of so many in that you're attributing the wins and losses solely to the QB of the respective team.

Look, I'm a QB-centric guy. I understand and firmly believe that generally speaking a team goes where the QB goes. And the Falcons lost vs. the Giants, in large part because Matt Ryan did not play well.

But Flacco did not have a damn good year. He had an up and down year, and that offense was very inconsistent. And part of that is on the coaching, which is why it was such a shock to many that Cam Cameron remained the OC there.

But what so many people don't understand is that one of the reasons why Drew Brees is so success is because Sean Payton wants him to be successful. And he designs gameplans that are designed to make Drew Brees have the most possible success he can have. And that doesn't happen over night. That's something that they've been building towards for years. And if you watch the Saints play and then the Falcons play, and the only conclusion you come away with is Brees is better than Ryan (which he is), means you are missing a big piece of the equation.

And that's what part is missing from the Falcons. And that doesn't fall at Matt Ryan's feet. That's 100% on coaching. You need a coach that designs gameplans (like Payton) to get the most out of his QB.

That hasn't happened in Atlanta, and may never happen. Because when Mike Smith's back is against the wall, he turns to Michael Turner to get him out of the situation as evidenced by their gamplan vs. the Giants. ANd it's not a coincidence that Matt Ryan has been lackluster in January because January is a QB and defense driven month by and large, and the Falcons don't really prepare Matt Ryan to take the keys and drive the car through the regular season.

The Falcons need to start growing the offense and team around Matt Ryan, and they have yet to do that. I thought when they picked up Julio Jones that's what their plan was to do. And we'll see if that is the case going forward, because they didn't really do it this past year.

My hope is that Mike Smith plans on doing this. And he hired Koetter and will give him and Ryan the leeway to basically run the offense thru him, something Mularkey never really did (because IMO Smitty never really let him or wanted him to). And in the ensuing years, you're going to start to see Matt Ryan develop from being a good game manager to an elite QB. This is what has happened in San Diego since Brees left there, and Rivers became the starter. This is what is currently happening in GB, NO, and Pittsburgh, etc. And the first indicator that is going to be the team's decision to dump Turner.

And that's why I think their decision on the future of Michael Turner is the definitive statement on whether Smitty gets this or doesn't get this. Turner does not fit Dirk Koetter's offense. And if they keep Turner, then it means that Ryan will continue to be this disappointing player because Smitty & Co. do not know how to get the most out of QB, which starts with building an offense that is designed to maximize his skillset, production, and ability. And that has not been the offense the Falcons have ran over the past 4 years.

And that's what many don't get. They think because of all this talent around him and these nice weapons, that this offense is designed to maximize Ryan's talent. But they're not aware that all it is is a nice bunch of hood ornaments, tinted windows, shiny chrome rims, and a flashy paint job. The core of the car is the engine.

And this metaphorical car needs a brand new engine put in, and that's up to Smith & Co., not Matt Ryan. Ryan is just the driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Fun gus, I know you're a "Team Matt" guy, but you're falling into the trap of so many in that you're attributing the wins and losses solely to the QB of the respective team....And this metaphorical car needs a brand new engine put in, and that's up to Smith & Co., not Matt Ryan. Ryan is just the driver.



I respectfully disagree. Reread my posts. If ( and here we go with the 'if's and but's) you rewatch the Arizona playoff loss, you are going to see a fired up Matt Ryan, yelling at his team on the sidelines. You are going to see a fighter. I did not see that last year, or this last playoff loss. But the fact ( and it's fact, not fiction) that Ryan couldn't even post a TD with 9 minuites left in the game, and the Giants up by 22 points, and playing prevent is not a result of coaching. It's because Matt Ryan checked out. With 3 minutes left, after Peters stopped yet another scoring drive and the Giants missed a chip shot field goal, Ryan dinked and dunked his way to no f&cking points. Down by 22!! In a playoff game!!!

That last possession, with no chance of winning the game, Ryan played scared. I saw it. His timing was rattled, and they Giants had everyone in the end zone and Matt Ryan at the NYG 17 yard line threw 3 incomplete passes and then held on to the ball too long and got sacked for his last play.

That aint on Smith. The crap in the first three quarters I can put on 'coaching'..But with minutes left in garbage time? This is not the Matt Ryan from 2008. I thought last year was pretty bad, but this is awful. Sorry friend, I put alot on the coaches, and I do know there is blame to go around, but the reason Matt Ryan got shut out wasn't because he played poorly, its because he played scared. Yes, playcalling didn't help, but it's softening the blow to say 'Ryan played poorly' when he sh*t the bed like that. The last 3-4 minutes of this playoff is going to stick in my craw for quite awhile. I need to see something else, because this is 2 times in January Ryan lost without a fight.

Now maybe Koetter comes in here, and Matt Ryan suddenly grow his set back and starts winning playoff games and I will be happily eating crow at that point. But, I think this is going to set Ryan back, especially if we see a Turner centric offensive philosphy :snooty:

We will see.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Fun gus you're not wrong about Ryan playing scared in that game. But you act like that was a new development in the Giants game. That he and this team had played with confidence all year long. That was the problem with the team all year long, and that has been a problem with this team throughout Mike Smith's tenure.

In the big moments, they get tight. You see it in Smitty's demeanor on the sideline. I'm sure folks that go to the games also have seen it with how this team carries itself in the games against good teams and when they get behind against good teams.

Now, as others have said, Matt Ryan is a boy scout. And people want him to be a bit more of a "go-getter" because they believe other franchise QBs are that way. But that's not in Matt Ryan's personality, and nor is it accurate to say that all top QBs are wired that particular way.

You're not going to be able to change Matt Ryan's personality at the snap of a finger. So what has to happen is the coaching staff has to take that first step to facilitate that boost in confidence for Ryan. They need to stop coaching him to play scared. Because what you're not factoring in, is that for 4 years now it's been beat into his skull over and over that turning the ball over is the worst possible thing he could ever do. And that his entire being and existence is to manage the game.

Everything about this coach staff and their mantra and their teaching centers on "not losing" as opposed to "winning."

And I don't want to get into this black/white debate where it seems like you're either blaming it all on the coaches or the QB, and nothing in between. Because that is not the case. Both parties are at fault, and both parties have to improve.

But this notion that it's on Ryan first and foremost to improve, and that the coaches don't have to take the lead is absolutely ludicrous. It simply doesn't work that way.

When we talked about Michael Vick and Greg Knapp, the analogy was that of a teacher and a student. And it basically boiled down to not being Knapp the teacher's fault if Vick the student wasn't doing his homework, wasn't studying, was skipping class, etc. and that was why he wasn't excelling in school.

Ryan is the polar opposite. Ryan will go to class, he's going to study, he's going to do his homework, reading, take notes, etc. So now it's on the shoulders of the teacher to challenge him. He's eager to learn. And this is what the people that say Ryan's intangibles are overrated don't quite understand. This is where those intangibles would show up if the coaching staff was challenging him.

But they are not. Telling him to go out and win the game by himself against the Giants without any structure/platform to do is not the right kind of challenge. It's like asking the student to pass a calculus test when he's only got an algebra book at his disposal. And that's the issue that people like Cyril, Steve, and you fun gus keep glossing over. The Falcons went into that Giants game without really preparing or equipping Matt Ryan to win that game because their game plan came down solely to their ability to run the football.

The formula for beating the Falcons isn't particularly complex or hard. Get a lead and/or stop their run, and you pretty much have them licked.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:52 pm 
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I like Mike Smith and overall think he is a decent coach. However, he is delusional when it comes to assessing the team. "This team is just short of elite." I can't imagine any great coach (i.e. belicheck, parcells) ever making a statement like that after getting completely DOMINATED. "This team is just on the good side of average" is more like it, unfortunately. In the grand scheme of things these kind of statements mean nothing, it just irks the hell out of me when I hear that after a thorough pounding. I remember a similar statement last year after the GB game: "They were the better team TODAY." Um, really? IMHO Mike Smith needs to get a better handle of the talent and capabilities of this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:57 am 
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"
Quote:
Pudge Wrote: "Now, where i stand on this issue is that I do not believe the coaches really gave Matt Ryan a chance. And I'm going to make this statement, and the reality is that if you can't simply see what I'm saying by this statement, then there's really nothing I can say to explain it to you. I don't mean to be condescending, but it's really that simple. It's like putting a Tea Party person and a college professor in the same room to talk about some issue, and they're just not going to find any common ground because their perspectives are so wildly different.


Well its not condescending to me because I've understood your view of the situation.....Its all about planning ahead for Turner to carry the team; (those 20+ carries) when he hasn't hardly done it all year; and all other conservative play calls that takes away Ryan's chance to let us win!!

Quote:
Now Johnny51 wrote" Not being privy to what goes on in the locker room or in meetings, it's hard to say. Maybe he does address issues and show fire in his belly. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for two reasons. Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco. I don't see Ryan's teammates throwing him under the bus like they do in NY and in Baltimore. As a matter of fact, Ryan is praised for his leadership skills and hard work by his teammates. I guess that makes them good boy scouts too?... Even the best QB's, Tom Brady, Brees or Aaron Roger can't stray from the game plan that is laid out to them by the coaches.


The problem with the above statement is he's named better Qbs than Ryan who don't need to stray away from the gameplan; but both Rodgers & Brees will stop plays and just play sandlot football on any play and often make it work.....

I'm not talking about just the Giant Game.....No I think Brady, Breeze, and Rodgers will watch film and give imput on what they want to do...and I believe its not just 100% coaches, the personality of the Qb can show itself!! This is what I don't know..... Johnny is wrong IMO that these Qbs can't stray some from the game plan as the game moves forward.... This can't be answered but I want to see
if Ryan wants to be on a leash... I believe if he doesn't want to be he can change that....However it takes a risk on Ryan's part to be candid
about where he wants his football team to go.....

Right now I think Ryan could be saying Coach--- If we're going to get to the next level; we need to pass more and run less..... He could even take that to Thomas D. after telling Coach Smith he feels strongly about this; and believes his handling the ball will result in more wins....

My thinking is for Ryan to go somewhere in this direction (professionally); he's got to believe it himself!! Does Matt Ryan believe in a much improved Matt Ryan....No professional Qb should just let a coach take you in the wrong direction if he really believes that's happening!! That's not being a maverick; if done professionally its leadership and not letting someone make you less than your best!!

I like Matt Ryan unless I believe he's just earning his paycheck; by going along with any ideas given by people who never have played
on his level!! This isn't unrealistic, and this isn't going off half cocked!! At some point Ryan needs to show and Smith needs to let him
"be the man". And this might make Ryan make a case for himself!! If Ryan believes this should he make the case for himself??

My Question is not Ryan the Qb, but the attitude of our Qb??

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:59 am 
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Cyril wrote:
"
Quote:
Pudge Wrote: "Now, where i stand on this issue is that I do not believe the coaches really gave Matt Ryan a chance. And I'm going to make this statement, and the reality is that if you can't simply see what I'm saying by this statement, then there's really nothing I can say to explain it to you. I don't mean to be condescending, but it's really that simple. It's like putting a Tea Party person and a college professor in the same room to talk about some issue, and they're just not going to find any common ground because their perspectives are so wildly different.


Well its not condescending to me because I've understood your view of the situation.....Its all about planning ahead for Turner to carry the team; (those 20+ carries) when he hasn't hardly done it all year; and all other conservative play calls that takes away Ryan's chance to let us win!!

Quote:
Now Johnny51 wrote" Not being privy to what goes on in the locker room or in meetings, it's hard to say. Maybe he does address issues and show fire in his belly. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for two reasons. Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco. I don't see Ryan's teammates throwing him under the bus like they do in NY and in Baltimore. As a matter of fact, Ryan is praised for his leadership skills and hard work by his teammates. I guess that makes them good boy scouts too?... Even the best QB's, Tom Brady, Brees or Aaron Roger can't stray from the game plan that is laid out to them by the coaches.


The problem with the above statement is he's named better Qbs than Ryan who don't need to stray away from the gameplan; but both Rodgers & Brees will stop plays and just play sandlot football on any play and often make it work.....

I'm not talking about just the Giant Game.....No I think Brady, Breeze, and Rodgers will watch film and give imput on what they want to do...and I believe its not just 100% coaches, the personality of the Qb can show itself!! This is what I don't know..... Johnny is wrong IMO that these Qbs can't stray some from the game plan as the game moves forward.... This can't be answered but I want to see
if Ryan wants to be on a leash... I believe if he doesn't want to be he can change that....However it takes a risk on Ryan's part to be candid
about where he wants his football team to go.....

Right now I think Ryan could be saying Coach--- If we're going to get to the next level; we need to pass more and run less..... He could even take that to Thomas D. after telling Coach Smith he feels strongly about this; and believes his handling the ball will result in more wins....

My thinking is for Ryan to go somewhere in this direction (professionally); he's got to believe it himself!! Does Matt Ryan believe in a much improved Matt Ryan....No professional Qb should just let a coach take you in the wrong direction if he really believes that's happening!! That's not being a maverick; if done professionally its leadership and not letting someone make you less than your best!!

I like Matt Ryan unless I believe he's just earning his paycheck; by going along with any ideas given by people who never have played
on his level!! This isn't unrealistic, and this isn't going off half cocked!! At some point Ryan needs to show and Smith needs to let him
"be the man". And this might make Ryan make a case for himself!! If Ryan believes this should he make the case for himself??

My Question is not Ryan the Qb, but the attitude of our Qb??



very well put Cyril! :clap:

Pudge, I get where your coming from. And for the most part I agree. Lots of blame to go around, but..Where we disagree is that Ryan 'accepts' being 'coached to play scared'. I could accept that 4 year ago. Now, I cannot. It is up to Ryan, the man not the QB, to go to Smith and TD ( and Blank if he has to ) and get some things changed. If not, and he continues to play like a pussy, and the results are the same, it may not even be time to move on from Smith and co, it may be time to move on from Matt Ryan (gasp). And when he signs that extension, that will take that option off the table.

So lets hope Matt grows his pair back, and soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:34 am 
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But again, I think both of you fun gus and Cyril among others are falling into the trap that you're comparing Matt Ryan, a 4-year veteran to guys with 6, 8, 10, and 12 years of experience. Those players didn't suddenly wake up in their 4th or 5th years and demand that they run a certain offense. They grow into those roles because there is an obvious give and take with their team.

Did Tom Brady stroll into Bill Belichick's offense sometime around 2003 or 2004 and demanded more control of the offense? No. Because if he did, then the Pats wouldn't have traded for Corey Dillon in 2004 and made him a major focal point of the offense. The development of the "Tom Brady first" offense in New England was facilitated by Belichick himself around 2005 when he realized that Brady was his best asset and that it behooved him to build an offense around him. And then in 2007, after a couple of more years of growth, he had that landmark year and hasn't looked back since.

You think Drew Brees did this in San Diego in his 4th/5th (around 2004-05), and demanded that the Marty Schottenheimer chill out with all the carries they were giving Tomlinson, and start to throw the ball more. And you think that was what got him kicked out of San Diego? And you think when he was trying to decide between Miami and New Orleans in 2006, it basically came down to him being up front with both teams that he wanted to throw the ball? No, none of that happened. Payton is an aggressive play-caller, a former pro QB that was a scab during the '87 season. And they've since developed a system and partnership where their entire goal is for the QB to be the best possible player he can be.

You think he's really going to challenge a guy that has won 67% of his games, and say to him, "No, you're doing it wrong"? And I think you're being naive if you think any other 5th year QB would do the same.

I agree he needs to be assertive. But Mike Smith has to take the lead. He has to say to himself that we need to be the best offense we can be. We want to be more explosive, we want to be a vertical passing attack, then every effort we make from a play-calling standpoint, coaching standpoint, and personnel standpoint needs to be geared to being the best, most explosive, most feared vertical passing attack in the league. That first step cannot be taken by Matt Ryan. He's not going to be sitting in meetings and thinking to himself as he's supposed to be learning the Dirk Koetter offense, "Screw this. I'm just going to run the offense I want to run."

Now my hope is that during those meetings, Matt will get a large amount of input on what aspects of Koetter's offense he likes, and Koetter will have the leeway and ability to keep certain aspects of Mularkey's offense that Matt really liked in his offense. But without being in on those meetings, we won't really know if that actually happens.

You want to see Matt be more assertive, but at the same time you don't want to see Koetter shut down that assertiveness.

And it's really hard for me to understand how you can knock Matt for being docile when he runs the no-huddle so well. He's by no means a guy that is brash and pounding the table till he gets his way, but it's not like he's ever been afraid to take the reins and run things his way.

But what happens if Koetter doesn't really want to run the no-huddle and wants to maintain control over the offense? You want him to go behind Koetter's back to Smitty and try to step in here? You want that OC-QB relationship to sour from the very get go?

But the way I see it, whether the Falcons want to be the most explosive vertical passing attack in the league, or the most dominant physical running attack in the league, it starts with their decision to cut Michael Turner. If they do that, then I have hope for the future of this team, this QB, and this coach. If they do not, then we're doomed to continued mediocrity as far as it goes with winning in January. If they do not, then we're essentially nothing more than the Cincinnati Bengals that are just wasting the prime of their franchise QB because of poor management/coaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
But what happens if Koetter doesn't really want to run the no-huddle and wants to maintain control over the offense? You want him to go behind Koetter's back to Smitty and try to step in here? You want that OC-QB relationship to sour from the very get go?.



yes. YES I DO. Does it really matter if the guy is taking away one of your best options at the end of the day? Hell yes it does! That's Mularkey not utilizing Ryan with the screen play all over again. Personally, I dont care what Brady or Brees did, I care about what Ryan does. If he was not going to sign a huge extension, I would feel differently. But if he is going to be the franchise QB here and may be here after Smith is gone, it's time to grow some nuts right now.

Were not going to agree on this, because some want to put more onus on Ryan and some want to put more blame on coaching. I think we all realize it's a combination of both. But, like I said, this is the same situation we had with Vick. People back then said he didn't study and bust his a$$ because.. ( fill in the Arthur Blank. Pill Bug Rb. Crappy Oline. Pisspoor playcalling, etc) . And aything good he did was because 'fill in the blank' and when he checked out ( like that Chicago game ) there were a plethora of 'coaching' excuses back then too. Its DejaVu all over again...

Now were looking at Ryan, and I'm saying what I saw in New Jersey goes BEYOND coaching. It goes to something much deeper, and personal. Pudge, your saying Ryan played scared because that;s what he was 'taught'. I'm saying allowing yourself to be 'taught' that way, especially at this point, is bad enough and that's on Ryan.

And in the big games the last two times, I not only saw no 'fire', but no 'desire'. You cannot 'teach' that. Time Tebow doesn't check out. Alex Smith doesn't check out. NO matter 'what thier coaches planned for them' they dont do it. It is not in thier nature. I cant be 'coached' into them . And they have less talents then Matt Ryan.

If next January, I see another 'check out' Matt Ryan, this will put this argument to bed forever. Buckle up, y'all.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:40 pm 
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I don't want to say specifically that Matt Ryan was taught to play scared. But I do think the Falcons tend to have a bit more of a "fear-based" environment, and therefore I'm not going to bring the hammer down on Ryan because he simply reflected that environment.

IMO, that's what separated the Falcons in the playoffs from the 49ers in the playoffs. That's the difference between Smitty and Jim Harbaugh. I think Harbaugh brings a certain swagger and energy to his team that Smitty is not bringing to the table. And in an environment such as Harbaugh brings, you tend to have teams that are more able to rise to the occasion. This is was a big reason why IMO he was successful at Stanford, and they were able to knock off a team like USC multiple times, because his coaching breeds confidence as opposed to fear. ANd it seemed like this was what the Falcons were doing when Mike SMith first got here, but now with the value of hindsight, maybe that was only because he brought confidence in contrast to the Petrino Era moreso than it could really stand on its own.

And you saw it at Harbaugh's end of the year presser where he basically said, "We coached the s**t out of this team, and any shortcomings was not from us." And maybe that makes Harbaugh too cocky. But I want to see more of that with Smitty & Co.

It's like what I said earlier, it should be less about minimizing your mistakes, than maximizing your success. And I don't see that here, but it seems to be the case with those other teams that are having more success than us over recent years. Eli may throw a ton of picks, but that doesn't stop the Giants from throwing the football. Why? Because they are confident in Eli, because he's their guy and they don't take the ball out of his hands. But the Falcons do that quite a bit with Matt Ryan. They play for OT, they play for FGs, they constantly feed Turner on 1st down and in short-yardage situations, etc.

And I'm not going to say that Matt Ryan has always performed at a level to inspire confidence in many of those instances (e.g. the botched QB sneaks or missed deep balls vs. Houston). And I'm not going to deny that Matt Ryan has a conservative streak within him, and I'm not going to try and pretend that is going to go away at the snap of the finger. But I believe if you coach him in an environment where you stop worrying about that last turnover and worry more about your next TD, then you can start to build that confidence and minimize that conservative nature over time. And if this team tells him the proper way to throw deep, and puts the ball in his hands on 1st down, and gives him the right supporting cast, etc. then I'm confident that Ryan's work ethic, leadership, and strong character, and all those intangibles that people like to disparage are going to allow him to rise to the occasion.

But my point is the coaches have to take that initial step, and ask Matt to follow. And if he does, and they challenge him and he rises to the occasion, then all of their dreams/goals can be achieved. If he doesn't, then you move on. But there is absolutely no incentive to not making that challenge and take those steps, because if you don't you just stagnate and you wind up moving on from Ryan and Mike Smith is out of job.

If Matt Ryan is the problem, then it should be clear he is the problem. But that's currently not the case because we're having this spirited debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:17 am 
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Pudge wrote:
I don't want to say specifically that Matt Ryan was taught to play scared.If Matt Ryan is the problem, then it should be clear he is the problem. But that's currently not the case because we're having this spirited debate.



we have had more 'spirited debates' before and you, my friend, were found wanting. A certain Mr Jackson comes to mind :lol: A debate does not make the argument solid. We argued for a year is Jam 98 was gonna show up. Puh-leeeeeze. :roll:

You can talk to me about Harbaugh, and what not. You cannot, simply CANNOT even put Matt Ryan's last 2 post season appearences next to that. Alex Smith: does not check out. Matt Ryan DOES. Get used to it, Pudge. Please.

Blah Blah DVOA and BS, the fact is Alex Smith is NOT a pussy. Matt Ryan at this point IS A BIG PUSSY. That is all.

The reason you dont 'want to say it' is because it hurts. The sooner you pull off the band aid then you will heal quicker.


JUst sayin

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:42 am 
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And you continue to make the same mistake that so many others make when it comes to QBs, and simply think things just magically come from the aether. That Alex Smith played well vs. the Saints simply because he wanted to, and that a lot of work had not gone in leading up to that performance. Jim Harbaugh had a lot to do with Alex Smith's success in that particular game, and to dismiss it just because it doesn't fit into your world view is the very definition of myopia. As I've said several times over the last month or so, these really good QBs weren't always really good. Tom Brady and the like had a lot of help to get where they are currently. And if you think Matt Ryan simply will get to where we all want him to get on sheer will, then your sadly mistaken, my friend. The world doesn't work like that, and football especially doesn't work like that.

Matt did play like a pussy against the Giants. But just like Alex Smith was aided by his coaching staff in his performance, so was Matt in his. The Falcons were a very poorly coached football team on that day. So if you want to take that single game's performance and extrapolate it to cover the entire career of Matt Ryan, then why aren't you doing the same with Mike Smith & Co.?

And I don't think you want to start comparing body counts, when it comes to who has been found wanting in past debates. :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:03 am 
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Come on Gus, in our spirited debates I don't think anyone has been found wanting, (except the guy that hated Pudge and he was cut!! )

Well I wouldn't want Ryan to go around anyone..... Any discussions can be with the Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator!!
Remember in all my post season posts; I'm admitting I'm not sure about Ryan's attitude for taking chances for moving forward.....

No one in the NFL is a pussy, but some will take a hit more than others; to make a play.... Ryan's not that high on my "take a hit list"
although like all Qbs he gets hit, but I think teams are starting to take their own chances to hit Ryan, but in home games
he seems tougher!! (of course in a perfect world Ryan wouldn't have to get hit; but this is football)

Our only difference as I see it is you Pudge seem positive any shortcoming is coming from the coach; and I'm just not so sure....

Matt's been the winning Qb of all but one of Smith's wins; so there is not much more that I can say..... I'm only clearing up what I
see is possible......

Going into the 5th year with his only coach, it just seems Matt Ryan should be talking about what he'd like to do, and
as long as we have Julio; Matt's going to have to get better at the long accurate pass; even if its not his best play......

Matt's only the problem if he thinks he can play a better game in a wide open game; and not expressing that!! (I'm not talking about running to Blank, I'm just saying after 4 years with the same coach; it seems he should be expressing what he wants to do with
a new Offensive Coordinator.

Obviously not being there we don't know how assertive Matt is with the game plan; and once the line got worse and Turner's play is
not what is was; I don't see how we don't play more wide open....(next year)

I'd also like to see Turner gone; I don't think Snelling is a good option either, I fell certain he's lost whatever he's had too; unless its at fullback where we originally
drafted him.....I like the change up to Koetter (now) because I think it may make Ryan get better or worse.... I'd like to Franchise Ryan
this year!!

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:01 am 
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Pudge wrote:
And you continue to make the same mistake that so many others make when it comes to QBs, and simply think things just magically come from the aether. That Alex Smith played well vs. the Saints simply because he wanted to, and that a lot of work had not gone in leading up to that performance. Jim Harbaugh had a lot to do with Alex Smith's success in that particular game, and to dismiss it just because it doesn't fit into your world view is the very definition of myopia. As I've said several times over the last month or so, these really good QBs weren't always really good. Tom Brady and the like had a lot of help to get where they are currently. And if you think Matt Ryan simply will get to where we all want him to get on sheer will, then your sadly mistaken, my friend. The world doesn't work like that, and football especially doesn't work like that.

Matt did play like a pussy against the Giants. But just like Alex Smith was aided by his coaching staff in his performance, so was Matt in his. The Falcons were a very poorly coached football team on that day. So if you want to take that single game's performance and extrapolate it to cover the entire career of Matt Ryan, then why aren't you doing the same with Mike Smith & Co.?

And I don't think you want to start comparing body counts, when it comes to who has been found wanting in past debates. :whistle:


:lol: :clap:

Look Pudge, Im not saying Matt Ryan will always play like a pussy. In his first playoff game he did not.In the last one, he did. Now it seems you want to put that on coaching. I'll lay some of the blame there. But if he had at least scored one freekin touchdown we would not be having this debate. There is no excuse for that. AT ALL. You cant blame his coaches, his mommy or Jeebus, his team ,the Giants, the last 3 minutes of that playoff game is on one Matt Ryan. :snooty:

And because you like him alot, you are going to make the classic mistake of laying more of the blame elsewhere. I saw this happen before on other forums. Its a little bit confirmation bias. You dont want to accept the fact that Matt Ryan checked himself out. Instead, you want to tell yourself that some unpleasant results are not totally on Matt Ryan. And I am willing up to a point to agree. But when you cant get a TD in garbage time and Tim Tebow CAN (with a f*cked up rib no less) you are going to tell me that's because of Tim Tebows coaches? No sir.

Matt Ryan needs to show me he will not check out in January. I agree he doesnt solely own the loss, but he does own the fact that he couldn't get the ball in the endzone late in the game, because it didn't matter that much to him. He was already thinking about the ride home, seeing his wife and his contract extension.

I would be curious to find out if Emmit saw him on the sidelines, throwing his helmet around, getting in guys faces and stomping around ( like he did against Arizona in his first playoff game) or, if as I read elsewhere he sat his a$$ down and quit. They really did not show him much on the broadcast, but what I did see did not fill me with pride.....

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Where did you read that, FG? Forums? They did not show him much on the sidelines but the one shot I saw of him at the end was standing alone with his lip kind of poked out. Shots of the bench were less than inspiring, in general. I really hope the team has not given up on him and Smith. We've seen that before in ATL. I don't think MR has the most natural of bonds to his team mates though they may still like and respect him. I don't doubt he does his homework. So did George McClellan but it is all for naught if it doesn't translate to the battlefield.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:43 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
Where did you read that, FG? Forums? They did not show him much on the sidelines but the one shot I saw of him at the end was standing alone with his lip kind of poked out. Shots of the bench were less than inspiring, in general. I really hope the team has not given up on him and Smith. We've seen that before in ATL. I don't think MR has the most natural of bonds to his team mates though they may still like and respect him. I don't doubt he does his homework. So did George McClellan but it is all for naught if it doesn't translate to the battlefield.


Well, I read one account on the OFMB and JWFalcon on the 'Roost said something similar...Said that even pregame Matt seemed reserved. Of course, thats all spec and why I was wondering if Emmitt saw anything since he was there.

But I maintain if I had at least something in the waning minutes my opinion would be different. I didn't see alot of difference between that Chicago game where Vick checked out and the last game Matty 'Ice' played.

If next January the same thing happens again, I think were screwed. It will 'own' Ryan. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
Our only difference as I see it is you Pudge seem positive any shortcoming is coming from the coach; and I'm just not so sure....

I'm not trying to get into this either/or blame game with Ryan and the coaches. I'll reiterate, I think both parties are at fault. I think this team has a lot of problems, including the coaching, QB play, RB play, O-line, defense, pass rush, etc. And to sit here and pretend that it's one coach, player, or unit that is the crux of the problem and fixing that one issue is going to solve all or most of the Falcons problems is naive.

Everybody seems to be saying Matt Ryan needs to be more assertive. And I 100% agree with you. But where I disagree is whether or not the coaches need to take the lead on that issue. Because it seems to me that the perception is that all of these other great QBs that exist in the league today did that at the same point that Ryan finds himself in now. And I'm saying that isn't true. Those QBs got to where they are now because they had coaches that recognized that building their teams around their pretty good QB was the best way to win more football games. And coach & QB worked hand in hand to make those improvements that those guys made.

And what I'm saying is that the Falcons coaches have yet to do this because of their commitment to the conservative, smashmouth, running game. And when the chips are down, they prefer to put the ball in Michael Turner's hands than that of their QB. And I'm saying that this off-season is the perfect opportunity for this team to move away from that philosophy and if they do that by cutting Turner among some other moves and decisions, then I can be confident that Mike smith gets it, and winning in this QB-driven league is dependent on coaches recognizing that you have to give the keys to the car to the QB, which this team has thus far in the past 4 years been tentative about doing. And IMHO it was especially evident this past year.

fun gus wrote:
You cant blame his coaches, his mommy or Jeebus, his team ,the Giants, the last 3 minutes of that playoff game is on one Matt Ryan

What about the first 57 minutes? Was that ALL on Ryan, or was that all on the team?

fun gus wrote:
Matt Ryan needs to show me he will not check out in January.

You're right, but he also needs help from the coaching staff. And you keep saying things like this as if Matt Ryan is out there on an island and has to do everything by himself. And because of all these issues that Matt Ryan may have with confidence, then it puts more of an onus on the coaching staff to have to step up.

So if they recognize that they have a scared widdle QB that shies away in the month of January, then they have to make a decision. Either that is to get a brand new QB, or they have to go that extra mile to make sure their QB has built some confidence through the 17 weeks of the regular season through offensive success, and running the ball to the decrepit Michael Turner 300 times is not going to do that.

So again, a lot of it still rests on the shoulders of the coaches. Now, you're right, I like Matt Ryan. I have confidence that he can be a very good QB. To me, I think so highly of Matt Ryan that it astounds me that this team has yet to win a playoff game in 4 years with Matt Ryan as the QB. For me, there are between 15-20 QBs in this league that I believe can win at this level, which means they are capable (with help from coaches and supporting) of winning in January and competing at or near the highest levels. And I think Matt Ryan is near the upper end of that spectrum. I think Matt Ryan is definitely a Top 10 QB in this league, and if you include Peyton Manning, there are only 7 QBs that I would definitely put above him, then I don't think it's all on Matt to be that much better than he is. And with a few exceptions, I don't think there are many people on this forum that would say my assessment of Matt's skills are totally inaccurate. So when I see this team continue to struggle in January, I can't say that it's mostly on the QB's shoulders.

I give Ryan a pass for the Cardinals loss because he was a rookie and the defense did not play particularly well. And I give him a pass for the Packers loss because he was pretty good until that Tramon Williams pick 6 and the defense definitely did not play well. I'm not giving him a pass for his performance against the Giants. But at the same time, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the only thing that went wrong in that game was him, and not a lot of other things like dropped passes from Roddy White, the O-line get punked for 60 minutes, poor clock management at the end of the 1st half. But the overriding theme I'm noticing is that when the Falcons get down, the entire team falls flat, not just Matt Ryan.

It seems to me that the overriding them of this spirited debate seems to be that some people seem to think Ryan's ability to improve is largely or completely independent of coaching, and I vehemently disagree. Matt Ryan is a 5th year QB, and you're going to be hard-pressed to find many QBs in the modern era (past 15-20 years) that were at the same point in their careers and significantly better than what Ryan is now. Both Ryan and the coaches have to work hand in hand going forward, otherwise we're just Cincinnati South. One person is not going to carry this team to a championship, not Mike Smith, not Matt Ryan. And if you think that has is what happens in other NFL cities, then you don't know jack.

It's a team game. and the coaches have to start by giving Matt Ryan a structure/platform that is designed to maximize his performance and abilities. If they do that (which they have not), then it falls on Ryan's shoulders to produce. BUt you cannot produce without the structure. It's like trying to build a house or any complex structure without a blueprint. It just doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Ryan's typically pretty reserved in my observations throughout the season. Not much interaction with anyone aside from coaches and other QBs once the game begins. A bit of a "cold fish."

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:21 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
Ryan's typically pretty reserved in my observations throughout the season. Not much interaction with anyone aside from coaches and other QBs once the game begins. A bit of a "cold fish."

Yet people act like that is aberrant behavior for a young QB. Sure, it would be nice if Ryan was all fire and brimstone like Brady, but he's not. And that is not what is keeping Ryan, nor this team from reaching his/its potential. But people want to pretend that it is. Is it a factor? Certainly. But there are a thousand factors, from Ryan's own personality, to play-calling, to this team's drafting, to their blocking, to their defensive effort, pass rush, coverage, special teams, etc. Trying to whittle this issue of the Falcons "postseason underachievement" to Matt Ryan isn't assertive enough is simply a cop-out and people don't have a clue what they're talking about.

If/when people can find one or more examples of a 4th/5th year QB like Ryan taking the bull by the horns, then they might have a valid point. But they cannot find that example, because you're not going to find a 4th/5th year QB that made significant improvement without significant help from his coaches.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
backnblack wrote:
Ryan's typically pretty reserved in my observations throughout the season. Not much interaction with anyone aside from coaches and other QBs once the game begins. A bit of a "cold fish."

Yet people act like that is aberrant behavior for a young QB. Sure, it would be nice if Ryan was all fire and brimstone like Brady, but he's not. And that is not what is keeping Ryan, nor this team from reaching his/its potential. But people want to pretend that it is. Is it a factor? Certainly. But there are a thousand factors, from Ryan's own personality, to play-calling, to this team's drafting, to their blocking, to their defensive effort, pass rush, coverage, special teams, etc. Trying to whittle this issue of the Falcons "postseason underachievement" to Matt Ryan isn't assertive enough is simply a cop-out and people don't have a clue what they're talking about.

If/when people can find one or more examples of a 4th/5th year QB like Ryan taking the bull by the horns, then they might have a valid point. But they cannot find that example, because you're not going to find a 4th/5th year QB that made significant improvement without significant help from his coaches.

Actually, I think you are trying to reduce this particular criticism of Matt by some people to that being their one and done criticism of what is holding the team back. Maybe you can show me somewhere that someone said the only reason the Falcons aren't in the SB is that MR doesn't interact with his team mates enough on the sidelines or even that eh is the only reason they didn't get to the championship game. I'm not sure what the legal Latin term for this--maybe Wease knows--where you reduce your "opposition's" point to an over simplified and easily defeatable one. I think we all agree QB is a pretty important pos a lightning rod for critique both pos and neg. It is reflected in their salaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:32 am 
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Re-read fun gus posts. The implication is that Matt Ryan is the crux of the problem, if the problem is winning in January, which essentially is just another way of saying what is holding this team back from reaching its goals (winning championships).

We all seem to agree that this team is well-coached. At least in the regards that this team is very likely to compete for the playoffs ever year. And I think everyone agrees that Matt Ryan is a good QB, at least good enough to keep this team in competition for the playoffs every year. The shortcomings, i.e. what is holding this team back is this team is good enough to go far in the playoffs.

What seems to be the point of debate and where people seem to want to draw lines in the sand is whether those shortcomings fall mainly at the feet of the QB or the coaches. And I don't think it's an either/or situation, and I think most agree that both are at fault.

But what I've been stressing is that if this team is going to get over this hump, then the coaching has to change. The coaching has to be better. The Falcons can't be this conservative offense with B-level drafting and expect to win championships that way. To me, there is as clear a gap between Mike Smith and the elite coaches as most would say there is between Matt Ryan and the so-called elite QBs.

And it seems that what people like SteveH, fun gus, and Cyril have been saying in this thread is that if the coaching is bad, if the OC and Mike Smith and whoever are doing a subpar job, then the onus is on Matt Ryan to go up to those guys and tell them that they are doing their job wrong, and tell them how to run the appropriate offense. And they also are implying that other so-called elite QBs have done that in the past. And if Ryan is not able to assert his will over the coaches and/or this team, then he is not the right man for the job.

And I think such statements and sentiments are wrong. I don't think it's Matt Ryan's job to coach this team. I don't think there is a single example of another QB doing that with their respective team. Those QBs got where they are today because their coaches made the appropriate changes to grow their respective offenses around their QBs.

That is what I believe will get this team over the hump. If the coaches start to grow the offense around Matt Ryan in the coming years. And this Michael Turner-led offense, which it has been for 4 years is not going to cut it in January. If Mike Smith decides to grow the offense around Ryan, and he responds to it (which I believe he will), then icky balooky for us. If he decides to grow it around Ryan, and he does not respond, then we'll be moving on.

But Mike Smith has to make/take the first step. There seems to be the prevailing myth among the vocal folks in this thread, that other QBs operate/exist outside the parameters of their offense. And I think this myth is perpetrating because these people don't quite grasp that these other teams offenses are just that much more complex and well designed than our own. I think this is evidenced by the fact that Chad Johnson spent 10 years working in Bob Bratkowski's version of the Erhardt-Perkins offense that is practically identical to our own, then goes to New England's version of the Erhardt-Perkins offense is no more adept at their offense than a rookie would be. The Giants also run a version of that same offense. And on a fairly consistent basis, we've seen the Giants playmakers at WR and TE make plays throughout the year. And that's not simply because Eli Manning is more mobile than Matt or has a stronger arm. It's because Kevin Gilbride has done a better job of growing an offense around Eli over the past 3 or so years than Mike MUlarkey has over Matt in the past 4.

Now my hope is that Dirk Koetter's reputation as a keen offensive mind is accurate. And I also hope that Mike Smith gives him the leeway to really sink his teeth in and try to maximize this offense's potential. But what they have done up to now is not that.

But what I keep hearing from fun gus and others is that this offense/team can't grow/improve unless Matt Ryan mans up. And I'm saying he can't man up unless the coaches give him room to grow. And going into a playoff game where you strategy is to run the ball 30-35 times behind a bad line with an over the hill RB and minimize the impact your QB has on the game by taking the ball out of his hands, how can you seriously expect him to get better and play with confidence?

I'm trying to stress there is a causality/correlation between the Falcons gameplan against the Giants and Matt Ryan's performance. Now if you do not see that causality/correlation then there is really nothing more for us to discuss, because IMHO you simply have on blinders.

But I'll stress that I'm not saying that it's 100% the coaches fault that Ryan played poorly. Ryan played like a pussy, and he had opportunities to make plays and he did not. That is on him. He obviously has a lot of room to grow, and he displayed that in that game, as well as earlier games such as vs. Houston. But I've also seen Matt rise to the occasion (my oft-used 2010 Ravens example) when the ball is put into his hands. And I believe if the coaches did this on a weekly basis, it could/would pay dividends by the end of the year, and if not then in subsequent years, as it has with the Giants since their last Super Bowl win. For those that haven't been paying attention, the Giants have focused on being more of a pass-first team since 2007 with their play-calling, drafting weapons to put around him, their continued confidence in Eli Manning despite a high number of turnovers, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Dirk Koetter is the new OC
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:57 am 
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Have we ever had a game where MR threw more than 45 passes that we won?

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