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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:49 pm 
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1) LoL The back does not stand still on a swing pass, but yeah it is not a terribly difficult pass if the guy is wide open & there are no linemen close to the QB.

2) Elway is an all time QB, his stats are still top 5 in most categories. Questioning him as a HoFer is ridiculous. 2 rings & some of the greatest stats ever put up made him a first ballot no brainer.

3) How many first overall picks play like 1st overall picks at the age of 25? Almost none, especially not QB's, because they go to crap teams.

4) In 2011, Vick will be just turning 30 or 31, how is that the twilight of a QB's career? Even Randall Cunningham played late into his 30's.

5) Well it will be the same idiot fans that are calling for Schaub to start now, or were calling for us to draft Booker back in the day, or that thought we should get rid of Keith Brooking, or Jessie Tuggle. Every 25 yr old QB has a lot of work to do on their game & the fans in this city make it an unbearable place to play. Thank God for Arthur Blank & I hope the people who constantly find fault in Vick's game give up their season tickets so those of us who aren't as lucky to have already had them can go see Vick work his magic 8 games a year.

It's obvious this is going nowhere so let's just agree to disagree, you can offer a rebuttle if you would like but I really don't have much else to say on the matter. Vick is young & inconsistent, and he makes mistakes and plays on a team that would otherwise be competing with the Saints for the basement in this division if he were not here. Only time will tell what Vick really can be, but I think he has the ability physically & mentally.

*Oh, good debate by the way. You have some valid concerns and I do share some of them, but I am optomistic about Vick despite my pessimistic nature (which anyone in FalcFans Chat can attest to if they were in there during the 2nd half of this past season, "It's over, we're gonna lose.").

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:13 pm 
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I will agree....good debate...

I still question Elway as being the "great" that everyone else sees him as....I see him as a really good QB that didn't quite have enough to take his team all the way there on his back....he had a WHOLE lot of help getting those two rings....

just off the top of my head I am gonna name a couple of first overall picks that did pretty well for themselves pretty quickly....I didn't do a whole lot of research so don't nit pick me to death :D...this is over, hmmm, let's say last 10 years or so....

Peyton Manning
Eli Manning (though he hasn't done to much yet)
Keyshawn Johnson
Orlando Pace
Carson Palmer

the other top picks were called out to be busts by their fifth year.....at least the ones I can think of off the top of my head...


and Vick at 30-31 is going to be entering the final stretch...I suppose twilight may have been a bit strong...but if we are still having this conversation when Vick is 30-31 then it will be the twilight of his career....

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:55 am 
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I won't debate Vick anymore, but the Elway thing brings up an interesting issue. Is football the ultimate team sport? I mean have you really ever seen one player carry his team to a Super Bowl victory? Everyone is dependant upon the linemen, the QB is also dependant upon his WR's, and the same holds true defensively. Elway couldn't carry that team to a Super Bowl because no one player is ever going to do that. Those 80's Broncos teams had a lot of holes and kind of remind me of our 2004 team where you knew they were good, but you were scared for them going into the Super Bowl. I mean look at the teams that beat them, it's kind of disgusting the disparity of talent between the two teams in each game.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:15 am 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
mickvick302 wrote:
The_Incomparable wrote:
Mr Cerebral, Peyton Manning, looked brilliant staring down the barrel of the Steelers defense, huh?


So how can you predict Mike will do better against there D...bad comparison


Because he already did back when he played them. There is only a couple different players on that D from then to now.


You can't say that there D is the same as it was then. Their D is revamped, and a hell of a lot better.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:41 pm 
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I'm going to throw my 2 cents in on this one. I usually don't agree with Comp, but I see where he's coming from. Vick would be a completely different QB if probably 3 things happened:

1) He became more consistent in terms of his touch and accuracy.
2) He did a much better job in film study.
3) He worked much harder at getting on the same page with his WRs.

That is where guys like Brady and Manning stand out. Manning is untouchable in terms of how much work and study he puts in each week. I mean the man managed not only to do all of his work, but also was able to break down Eli's game films during his rookie year, and I wouldn't be surprised if he still did so.

Brady stands out because of his accuracy.

And the biggest thing to me is that he needs to work harder with his receivers. What makes Manning stand out is that he and his WRs are telepathic. It's why, Manning who is not a very accurate passer, is able to complete so many passes. On any other team, he nor his WRs would be even nearly as good. It's a built rapport that Manning makes sure he does with all his wideouts. Although you can call Manning a choke artist all you want, he is still the most prepared passer in the NFL, and usuaully manages to have only 1 bad game a year (it just happens to be the last one each time).

You see it in Cincinnati. Palmer is taking a page from Manning, in doing his best to get a rapport with Chad Johnson that Manning has with Harrison. Almost every other top QB is doing it. Going through the extra steps to get him and his receivrs on the same page, so that they have an almost telepathic link.

What is Vick doing? Nobody knows. I think one of the reasons the Falcons hired Musgrave was to light a fire under Vick's butt. Reportedly, he tried to do so in Jacksonville with Leftwich. Leftwich didn't quite take, and Musgrave was bounced. I pray Vick does take to Musgrave, because if he does I believe we will see in 2006 and 2007, Vick make that next step up.

Part of it I think boils down to Vick's desire. I'm not saying he's not very competitive, but he just doesn't quite seem as competitive and/or motivated and/or driven to do all the little things necessary to push himself to the next level.

I disagree with anybody that says Vick has regressed over the past 5 years. I see all the time how much progress Vick has made.

1) Vick's comfort in throwing from the pocket. Now, he will stand in there and deliver a throw from the pocket when it is collapsing. In 2001, he would tuck the ball and run anytime a defender was within 7 yards of him. Now he can wait until they are 0.5 yards away.

2) VIck's accuracy. Although still a bit erratic, the man can throw a 10-yard in route without firing the ball 109 mph 5 feet above Brian Finneran or Shawn Jefferson's head.

3) Vick's decision making. He's not forcing the ball as much, he has a better grasp of when to run and when to throw. He goes through his progressions and reads quicker.

Basically, the only that really hasn't changed is his ability to slide. It's pretty pathetic when you think about it, how his inability to slide actually increases his chances of getting hurt. There were times last year that he dove headfirst, and you knew he had hurt himself doing it. It's only moments like that when I want to shout out at him calling him a "DUMBASS!"

I have a much brighter hope for Vick's potential than I did at the beginning of the season. At the start of '05, I basically believed that VIck would have to make huge jumps in his play over the course of his career, if he ever wanted to lead this team to a championship. But I saw some of that progress occur in the month of November, in which he managed a 100 passer rating the entire month. Sure, we only managed 2 wins in that month, but I don't think it had much to do with Vick's play, but the fact that in both losses we got down to a two-score lead in the openning minutes of the 1st quarter, something that's difficult for any QB to come back from.

I'm very critical of Vick. He's my favorite Falcon and 2nd favorite player to watch play (Chad Johnson is #1). I've seen many instances where his play alone cost us a game, usually by his inability to hang onto the football. I've seen many more instances where his play alone won us a game, usually by using the same improvisational skills that he uses when he would fumble the ball, except this time it worked out.

It's hard to compare Vick with Elway and Favre. Yes, both are gunslingers, but what allows them to excel is their accuracy is much greater and more consistent than Vick's is. If he was accurate as both of those guys, then he would not catch as much flak. It's true, that Elway's numbers in the first 9 years of his career were rather average. And the team did take Tommy Maddox at some point, but a big part of that was the growing rift between Elway and Reeves, not just Elway's performance level. That rift came to a head when Reeves fired Shanahan in '91 and drafted Maddox in the first round in '92. Reeve was gone the next year.

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 Post subject: Vick has to want to be great!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:38 am 
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Had to throw my 2 cents in this debate about Vick.In order to be great and reach the level few do you have to work like no one else and have the ability.Work is doing the research,watching film, throwing hour after hour to have an innate ability like manning does with his receivers and know where they will be.Having any weakness in any area means you won't be the elite QB as we all want.

Vick says he wants to be great but there is a difference in doing it vs thinking about it.Work ethic is crucial and wanting to improve you have to have that burning desire to be the best.I think Vick believes he can take over a game any time and now the league is catching up with defenses defending his strengths better and now vick has nowhere to go.You always have to adjust just like a baseball player adjusts on pitchers.Scouting will find your weaknesses and exploit them.Vick needs to be more accurate,learn to put touch on ther ball,know when to run and pass.Also there is the fact that the play calling needs to exploit deeper passes more.The dink dunk and middle range passes are not going to put fear in defenses.Throwing the ball long will make defenses play back more.

Obviously we need better pass blockers on the line but when vick does have time you can't miss the target by 5 ft.Vick is young still and with musgrave maybe he can get vick to be workman like and understand that putting in the work needed to get to the next level is what Vick must do to be a top QB.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:09 pm 
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The other day when I went off about Vick I was in a pretty poor mood....but none the less I think he's got a lot of work to do still....

I agree with Pudge that he did show us a lot more towards the end of last season, but it was overshadowed by the fact we couldn't win games...(which I realize is mostly the defenses fault)...

I am justing pining for a little consistancy is all...I just want to see the same offense take the field every week instead of having to wonder which version of our team is going to show up.....


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:03 am 
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Scout's post got me thinking that maybe Vick has the totally incorrect belief that his athleticism is still heads and heels better than the competition. Frankly, the league has caught up rather quickly with Vick. If you just look around the NFC, so many teams now have in place a RDE that may not have the same level of athleticism that Vick has, but has enough that he can effectively contain him when he scrambles to his favorite side of the field.

WE have guys like Alex Brown, Mike Rucker, Simeon Rice, Kearse, KGB already. Emerging guys like Will Smith and Osi Umenyiora. Bert Berry and Bryce Fisher aren't guys that I would normally put on that list, but both the Seahawks and Cardinals have shown an ability over the past 2 years to effectively halt Vick. If we played the Rams, I'm betting they would slide Little over to the right like the Eagles do with Kearse in order to contain Vick. In MInnesota with Udeze or Erasmus James, or in Dallas with Demarcus Ware, how quickly those guys can make the next leap up could mean 2 more teams have capable guys. Basically, I'd say that only Detroit, San Francisco, and Washington don't have a guy playing at that position that can match up wtih Vick. But with Arrington on the field in DC, it basically is the same thing. So really, we are looking at least 2, at most 5 teams in the NFC alone that have difficulties matching up with Vick. This doesn't even factor in the AFC with guys like Abraham, Porter, Merriman, Freeney, etc.

I can't recall a game off the top of my head this past year where Vick really dazzled us with his mobility. Maybe the Vikings game? But hasn't it really been since Week 2 of 2004 (vs. Rams) where we've really seen Vick run and just look like a man amongst boys? In the immortal words of former Pitt coach Walt Harris, "they are all men out there" and Vick needs to find something else that is going to give him an edge. With all the injuries he's suffered on his lower half, you could easily see how much his acceleration and burst have dipped over recent years. Him trying to do what he did vs. Minnesota in '02 and split the defense, he wouldn't even come close to doing that now.

I'm curious to see just how fast Vick is now. When he came into the league, although I htink his official 40 was somewhere in the 4.3 range, most thought of him being a 4.25 or lower guy when he actually got on the field. If no other speedy Falcon gets voted to the Pro Bowl next year besides Vick, it may be up to him to try to keep the NFL's Fastest Man title in Atlanta, and it will be interesting to see if he is able to do that. I don't think he no longer can.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:33 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
One thing that bothers me about this whole argument is you guys keep saying you've seen all these games as if you are the only ones. Millions of people watch these games, me included, and I just won't agree with any of the junk you're talking about. Vick looks lost & confused? I mean do you have access to Mr. DeMille's close-up camera on closed circuit TV or something? Vick's been a pro for 5 years huh? Well he's only played for 3 years and has 2 playoff appearances already, for perhaps the worst franchise in the NFC over the last 40 years. How would YOU know if he knows how to read a defense any better than he did coming out of college? Are you Greg Knapp? Are you Jim Mora?

All I am reading is the same garbage here that I have to wade through over at AFMB just to find a post worth replying to. Vick threw for over 500 yards and multiple TD's against the Tampa Bay Bucs this year, TAMPA BAY, and if that isn't a big improvement then nothing is. But I guess being able to read their defense had nothing to do with it. What would be an improvement for you? Maybe he could throw for 3000 yards? Maybe he could throw for 25 TD's? Maybe he could put up a 100 passer rating for the year? You know what, I would settle for him getting the 450 to 500 attempts that every other 100 million dollar QB gets in this league. Go look at the numbers for yourself.

Go look at Elway's stats & think about how stupid some Denver fans must have felt when 1993 rolled around:
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=64


I would ask you the same question you ask of those you don't agree with. None of us "know" for a fact that we are right when it comes to any given subject simply because we don't work for the team and aren't privy to a lot of things.

As for the comparison to the other boards, I just don't see that at all. Nobody gets called names over here and any subject can be discussed INTELLIGENTLY without racial implications, etc. So let's leave that at the door.

Personally, I saw some improvements in Vick this past season. Do I think they are enough without his ability to run? Not with our offensive line and lack of pass blocking. EVERY QB has bad games that's a fact. However, Vick will continue to be a target because he's the QB and that goes for any QB...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:50 pm 
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Racial implications? I've already said I'm done debating this, and nobody else seemed to find serious issue with what I had to say, so I fail to see your purpose for digging back on something I posted almost a week ago. I stand behind what I said about him looking lost & not reading defenses. It seems like your last post was basically just picking a fight because I questioned other peoples' ability to know if he was confused or if he could read defenses, which is a totally legit and fact based rebuttle. None of us really knows that for sure either way. Anyhow, the main reason I posted in this thread again is because it seems like everyone wants to find fault in Vick when our defense gave up, what, 4 or 5 late 4th quarter leads this past year? I just don't find the logic in that at all. You can say it is because he is a QB, but what QB is going to do better on this team? I would say none.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:01 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
Racial implications? I've already said I'm done debating this, and nobody else seemed to find serious issue with what I had to say, so I fail to see your purpose for digging back on something I posted almost a week ago. I stand behind what I said about him looking lost & not reading defenses. It seems like your last post was basically just picking a fight because I questioned other peoples' ability to know if he was confused or if he could read defenses, which is a totally legit and fact based rebuttle. None of us really knows that for sure either way. Anyhow, the main reason I posted in this thread again is because it seems like everyone wants to find fault in Vick when our defense gave up, what, 4 or 5 late 4th quarter leads this past year? I just don't find the logic in that at all. You can say it is because he is a QB, but what QB is going to do better on this team? I would say none.


I was merely stating what I saw as the difference between the other boards and this one. Over there you get called racist, hater, etc. for dare discussing the Vick topic. I like the fact that we can discuss anything here without getting childish about it. Where are you getting "picking a fight" from? I simply stated that you can't come off challenging others to qualify their opinion when you can't qualify your own since you don't work with the team either.

All either side has to go on is what their perception is from what they see and people are going to see different things.

There's fault in any player on the planet but the fact is that Vick will be discussed many more times than Kevin Shaffer ever will and it's simply because people gravitate to the stars of the team.

I know I've openly said that our defense was the reason we didn't go to the playoffs and also find fault with the o-line constantly.

I'd say that because of his ability to run he's the right QB for this team because we can't pass block worth a crap. However, I find Vick to be a player with immense potential but he's by no means complete. He's got his areas to improve just like every other young player in the league...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:55 am 
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And I do agree that he needs to get better, but he is only 25 and we don't have the Steelers' defense. I didn't challenge anyone to qualify their opinion, I only challenged it with a fact in that none of us really knows if he gets confused out there and if he is better at reading defenses. That needs no qualifying because that is, in and of itself, a fact. I know Vick will get discussed more than other players, but it is N E V E R positive and that really pisses me off and is a poor reflection of our fanbase.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:09 am 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
And I do agree that he needs to get better, but he is only 25 and we don't have the Steelers' defense. I didn't challenge anyone to qualify their opinion, I only challenged it with a fact in that none of us really knows if he gets confused out there and if he is better at reading defenses. That needs no qualifying because that is, in and of itself, a fact. I know Vick will get discussed more than other players, but it is N E V E R positive and that really pisses me off and is a poor reflection of our fanbase.


Here's what you actually said: "I mean do you have access to Mr. DeMille's close-up camera on closed circuit TV or something? Vick's been a pro for 5 years huh? Well he's only played for 3 years and has 2 playoff appearances already, for perhaps the worst franchise in the NFC over the last 40 years. How would YOU know if he knows how to read a defense any better than he did coming out of college? Are you Greg Knapp? Are you Jim Mora?"

There is no "us" in the statements. That's asking to qualify. Nothing wrong with asking for qualification as long as you are willing to qualify your own. Now that you are using us and including yourself it's a moot point. :wink:

I disagree that there is "never" a positive discussion about Vick. Granted there are significantly fewer because what's there to discuss? How interesting of a discussion would it be for all of us patting him on the back? Discussions have to have disagreement, otherwise it's just mass agreement and the conversation is over. Moreover, at least in this forum, I generally see those who criticize also praise him on what he does well at this point in the same threads.

Just my point of view though and that surely isn't the Gospel...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:45 am 
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Some of you guys are pretty funny. When we win you say it's all because of Mike Vick. When we lose, there a a select few on here who make excuse after excuse for the guy. Defense, bad play calling, he's only 25, etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, that is part of it, but love fest with Vick gets sickening some times. Hey, we all want him to succeed, he's the QB for our Falcons, but if he was the QB for the Houston Texans would we really care about him that much?

We win as a team and lose as a team. Vick gets way too much credit for the wins and not enough "tough love" for the loses IMO. He has the talent to be one of the best, but it's up to him to use it. He's gotten by in college with his speed and natural ability, that can't be taught by any coach. But he has to apply himself in the film room and in the class room to be what we all know he can be. The fact is he hasn't done that yet and he may never do it.


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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
The fact is he hasn't done that yet and he may never do it.


OK that is exactly what I am talking about. How do any of us know what he has & has not improved upon? How do you know if he has not applied himself in the film room & in practice. I've heard in interviews that Michael is very good about watching film, but this statement would go unchallenged here because nobody has Vick's back. You can call me a nuthugger if you want, but the fact is this team has sucked for a very long time and it sucks when Vick isn't on the field. Am I the only one who suffered through the 80's & 90's? I mean give me a friggin break. What was that, like 3 winning seasons in 2 decades?

Cappy, I hear ya but the fact is I'm not the one making baseless accusations about Vick. I don't presume to know if he is putting in the work because nobody in the organization will publicly say he doesn't. They HAVE said he is good about film study in interviews. That's all I can about the subject. It's fine to have an opinion, and there is nothing wrong with me saying your opinion is baseless and devoid of facts, but I get the feeling you're telling me what I can & cannot say when I am just giving facts?

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The_Incomparable wrote:

Cappy, I hear ya but the fact is I'm not the one making baseless accusations about Vick. I don't presume to know if he is putting in the work because nobody in the organization will publicly say he doesn't. They HAVE said he is good about film study in interviews. That's all I can about the subject. It's fine to have an opinion, and there is nothing wrong with me saying your opinion is baseless and devoid of facts, but I get the feeling you're telling me what I can & cannot say when I am just giving facts?


Baseless accusations? Since when did we enter a trial? I can't speak for everyone but I'd say the fact that his QB coach just got fired because Vick's footwork hasn't improved can be an indicator that he needs to put in extra time. Vick himself said that he needs to work harder this offseason. There have been reports that he slacked off this past season. That would sound like a pretty good "base" to me.

I'm not telling you what you can or cannot say, I have no clue where you are getting that from as there was nothing even remotely close to that in my post....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:17 pm 
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How come every single thread we have on here that even mentions another QB is turns into a Michael Vick thread?

This board is apparently split 50/50 on Vick. Get over it......move on.......I have. It will be better for all of us if the rest of you all did.

Wanna make a deal? Lets not talk about Michale Vick untill camp starts? Anyone wanna take me up o that? Dirty I know you said you were done on Vick untill next seson?

Anyway back to the TOPIC.........Marcus Vick better not be in a falcon uni next year. He destroyed teams like Duke and Ohio (heh) but he didnt impress me vs. the better teams.

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Lets put it this way... Has character issues that make Maurice Clarett look like Walter Payton...Very raw and will need a lot of development...Only started for one season at the college level...Streaky and inconsistent...Struggled against top competition...A major risk who is just as likely to end up in jail as he is the Pro Bowl...Extremely immature.

Do you want this person on your team?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:00 pm 
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vickis, I'd love to take you up on your offer, but I know I wouldn't be able to live up to it.

If you put a ban on Vick discussion, it would likely mean any discussion about Marcus Vick, QBs in general, Musgrave, Knapp, and Schaub would have to be banned. We can't the WRs, Crumpler, the offensive line, because somehow or another it's going to come back to Vick.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:08 pm 
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If you put a ban on Vick discussion, it would likely mean any discussion about Marcus Vick, QBs in general, Musgrave, Knapp, and Schaub would have to be banned. We can't the WRs, Crumpler, the offensive line, because somehow or another it's going to come back to Vick.

...which is kinda my point. I thought this is supposed to be an Atlanta Falcons message board not a Michael Vick message board.

This is also the reason why since the season ended 90% of my posts have been on the Draft board. I try to avoid falling into the traps.... :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:32 am 
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Sure, we could talk about how our o-line needs to improve but I'm not sure how far that discussion would go because I don't think anyone is going to claim that our o-line is great as is.

However, there are some that think Vick is just fine where he is and others that feel he's got some stepping up to do as well.

It's all about discussion from my standpoint. There's no reason why anything about this team can't be discussed intelligently without cussing at people, namecalling, etc. I hope we continue having great threads where people just chat about topics and leave egos out of it, that's what makes this forum great IMO...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:04 pm 
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Sure, we could talk about how our o-line needs to improve but I'm not sure how far that discussion would go because I don't think anyone is going to claim that our o-line is great as is.

However, there are some that think Vick is just fine where he is and others that feel he's got some stepping up to do as well.

It's all about discussion from my standpoint. There's no reason why anything about this team can't be discussed intelligently without cussing at people, namecalling, etc. I hope we continue having great threads where people just chat about topics and leave egos out of it, that's what makes this forum great IMO...


You're missing my point.

We could be talking about how our secondary is sooo horrible, blah, blah, blah, etc.........and it somehow turns into a Vick discussion. My whole point is we cant talk about any aspect of our team without it tunring into a Vick discussion.

I'm not saying we shouldnt talk about Vick because yes, he does have alot to work on, but our TEAM also has alot to work on and we shouldnt change the subject when discussing such things.

Make sense?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:46 pm 
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vickisthebest wrote:
Sure, we could talk about how our o-line needs to improve but I'm not sure how far that discussion would go because I don't think anyone is going to claim that our o-line is great as is.

However, there are some that think Vick is just fine where he is and others that feel he's got some stepping up to do as well.

It's all about discussion from my standpoint. There's no reason why anything about this team can't be discussed intelligently without cussing at people, namecalling, etc. I hope we continue having great threads where people just chat about topics and leave egos out of it, that's what makes this forum great IMO...


You're missing my point.

We could be talking about how our secondary is sooo horrible, blah, blah, blah, etc.........and it somehow turns into a Vick discussion. My whole point is we cant talk about any aspect of our team without it tunring into a Vick discussion.

I'm not saying we shouldnt talk about Vick because yes, he does have alot to work on, but our TEAM also has alot to work on and we shouldnt change the subject when discussing such things.

Make sense?


Yep, I got that part of it when I read your posts. I probably should have made it clear that I was responding to the "Let's not talk about Vick until camp starts" portion...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:50 am 
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The problem is that most of us generally agree on every other aspect of our team. The biggest dissention when discussing things like the OL, DL, secondary, etc. is "how much they suck" rather than if they suck at all.

The topic of Michael Vick presents views from across the spectrum, not just varying degrees of one end of it. There are 1) those that believe Vick can do no wrong, 2) those that believe he has some work to do but try to focus on the positive, 3) those that fall smack dab in the middle that are pretty fickle and base it mostly on whether Vick's last game was a good one or not, 4) those that like Vick but tend to focus more on the negative than positive, 5) those that pay very little attention to the positive, and 6) those that hate VIck with a passion and see no positive. That's 6 varying degrees of where you fall on the issue of Michael Vick.

When it comes to someone like Kevin Shaffer it is 1) those that don't love him but can live with him 2) those that think he sucks, but they've seen worse 3) those that think he's the worst LT they've ever seen.

Nobody else on the team evokes that sort of passion. But I understand your point vickis, it's just one of those things you have to live with and/or try to ignore.

But I'll make an effort to cut back on my Vick discussion. I think at least for the time being we've all drawn the line where we stand on the issue. But it will probably only last a week before we have to draw more lines ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:02 pm 
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I think we have all found where we stand on the issue, and peronally I don't really have a problem with the discussions as long as they don't get personal and insulting...thankfully for the most part the people here are still cordial and polite when we disagree on something...

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