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 Post subject: vick reminds me of vince carter
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:31 pm 
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don't get me wrong vick has led us to victory on several occasions. and with the right mentoring and coaching i think he could be a leader. he lacks the mental toughness and iq at this point. he seemed much more on that path with dan reeves as coach and im not saying bring dan back, i'm just saying he is regressing. when vick says he isn't the only one on the team and that it's a team game, it reminds me of when v carter said the exact same thing when everyone was expecting him to lead the raptors. of course it never happened and he is now a 2ndary player to jason kidd. i want to see vick become the leader, he seemed so much more mature a couple of years ago. you'd never see him sucking on a sucker during the game. he needs strong leadership, a father figure, not a brother figure.


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 Post subject: Re: vick reminds me of vince carter
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:52 pm 
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buddyboy wrote:
don't get me wrong vick has led us to victory on several occasions.


Without Vick this 'team' has a sub .250 record which is ridiculous. I really would like to see what sort of record Schuab would generate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:54 pm 
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I wonder if the difference between the Dan Reeves era and the Jim Mora Jr. era is how much Vick is put up on a pedastal. Perhaps under Reeves it was made clear that Vick was not a god but a developing quarterback that could run. But under Jim Mora Jr. Vick has been codled (sp?) to the point that he believes his own hype and therefore has regressed.

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 Post subject: Re: vick reminds me of vince carter
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:41 pm 
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buddyboy wrote:
don't get me wrong vick has led us to victory on several occasions. and with the right mentoring and coaching i think he could be a leader. he lacks the mental toughness and iq at this point. he seemed much more on that path with dan reeves as coach and im not saying bring dan back, i'm just saying he is regressing. when vick says he isn't the only one on the team and that it's a team game, it reminds me of when v carter said the exact same thing when everyone was expecting him to lead the raptors. of course it never happened and he is now a 2ndary player to jason kidd. i want to see vick become the leader, he seemed so much more mature a couple of years ago. you'd never see him sucking on a sucker during the game. he needs strong leadership, a father figure, not a brother figure.



Well, the thing about this comparison is that this year, Vince Carter is doing amazing. Hopefully, Vick will be able to have a lot more confidence in his WRs this coming year and the passing team will have plenty of time to bond over the offseason

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 Post subject: Re: vick reminds me of vince carter
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:36 pm 
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revolution7 wrote:
Well, the thing about this comparison is that this year, Vince Carter is doing amazing. Hopefully, Vick will be able to have a lot more confidence in his WRs this coming year and the passing team will have plenty of time to bond over the offseason


I don't think it's about Vick bonding with his WR's so much as Vick learning to temper his own abilities. All the games where Atlanta has had to come from behind or been losing by a large margin, Vick's passes were hard thrown desperation throws.

Look at the Monday Night game versus New Orleans, Vick's passes were soft and on the money. He literally picked apart their defense and threaded several double teams to make completions.

In all of the recent losses, if you look at the tape, Vick seems to be trying to over-achieve. He throws very hard and off the mark because he is rushed or it is a third and long situation.

My own personal feeling is that Vick tries too hard versus good teams and ends up hurting himself, and against the lesser teams, he relaxes and his stats look like Pro-bowl material.

I don't think Vick has enough confidence in himself and his teamates to just play the game and let the win come to him. Look at Brady and Peyton Manning, they seem to float around the pocket, Vick seems to be jerky and eratic.

Age? Experience? Training? Subconcious habits? Some, all or none? I think it's a bit of all the above.

I said in a previous post, not sure if it was on this site, but Vick's high school coach should be fired and blacklisted from all coaching jobs. His college coach should as well, Vick's younger brother is doing the exact same things and has been eratic all year long.

Last weeks Jets/Patriots Monday Night game, the announcers talked about Brady's pregame and practice habits. He keeps a note with a list of motions he goes through when making a pass. He reads this note before each game to remind himself to stay in form. It went something like: Plant the front foot, ball directly over the shoulder, lead with the elbow, pop the wrist down and follow through with the throwing hand touching the opposite pocket.

This is all about mental and physical preparation. Going through the motions that make you disciplined and keep you from panicking and giving up the ball. We have seen Vick give up more interceptions and fumbles this year, and as most of you have said time and again, it's all about ball control.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:33 am 
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I don't think Vick has enough confidence in himself and his teamates to just play the game and let the win come to him. Look at Brady and Peyton Manning, they seem to float around the pocket, Vick seems to be jerky and eratic.


Well part of it is that Vick has way more talent in his left testicle than either Manning or Brady will ever have in their entire bodies. Vick's arm strength is leaps and bounds better than theirs and his ability to improvise and make plays with his legs is off the charts compared to theirs. Not saying either Manning or Brady are talentless, but when you look at pure talent (aka athletic potential), it's not like comparing apples and oranges, it's like comparing apples and dead rats.

I have yet to watch the season finale, and I'm betting this criticism of Vick which has bombarded the boards is a result of that game. I guess I'll have to see it before I can really gauge what the heck is going on.

Does Vick have tons of room for improvement? Yes, no doubts there.

This season was extremely disappointing, but this team & organization is in the right place and headed in the right direction. We just need to make the proper adjustments in the offseason to tighten that direction and lock it down. Does some of that veering off track stem from Vick? Probably, but I think a lot of the things that people are complaining about will come a bit more with experience.

But if you expect Michael Vick to become a leader in the mold of a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. It's a false and to put it bluntly stupid hope. He'll never be like them, because as I said before, they aren't as blessed as he is athletically, so their approaches to the game are completely different. That stems from their days of a playing Pop Warner up until now. That sort of poise would have surfaced by now in Vick's career, and since it has not, it is very very unlikely it ever will. But that shouldn't get you too down. Having that sort of poise and leadership is not a necessary ingredient to our team's success. Not to say, that the VIck of today can lead this team to a Super Bowl win, but I don't think it's a huge leap to where he needs to be in order to get that to happen.

It probably can happen when he grows even more comfortable in the offense. We saw that at the midway point this year. One problem with being uncomfortable running and leading the offense, is a lack of trust for your teammates. We saw as the season progressed, Vick going to Jenkins and White when he needed plays to be made, not just Finneran and Crumpler, the guys there before he ever saw Greg Knapp and his offense.

When looking at Vick's maturity under Reeves and now under Mora, you have to take into consideration where Vick was in his NFL career. Reeves seemed to have more control over Vick then because Vick was in his initial years in the league, and his mindset then was ingratiated himself into the league itself. Now, he's in the mindset of ingratiated himself in the upper echelon of QBs around the league. He was a "new NFL player" then, and he is now a "new NFL QB." I can assure if Reeves was still the coach, we'd be seeing the same problems we're seeing out of #7 under Mora.

Sure a Parcells or Coughlin type coach could exert some more control on Vick, but it doesn't always rub off on all players. Some guys love that in a coach, a bunch more hate it. I don't know exactly which is Vick, but I'd bet he would be in the latter group, just based on his own demeanor and the law of averages.

Vick has plenty of room for improvement, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least for the short term. I want to see what he does in his 3rd year of the WCO, the year when it all is supposed to come together, before I start hinting at how the Falcons aren't going to be able to make it to the next level with him under center.

Let's face it, 2005 was a learning experience for every player, coach, scout, and suit on this team and in this organization. Let's see what they learn from it before we start looking to replace them all...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:48 am 
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nicely put. I also think that Vick will continue to get better, and maturing with his WRs will help a lot

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:32 pm 
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I don't disagree with the prior posts. I'm just so frustrated in that Vick can't ever get all the parts of being a Quarterback down in a single game. He shows poise, accuracy, power, evasiveness, and awareness but he never puts them together in any single game. Most games we see the power and evasiveness but it is rare that we see accuracy, poise, and awareness coupled with those skills.

Against Tampa Vick opened haphazard and I thought we didn't have a chance. But as the game went on something amazing happened. Vick managed to combine the poise, power, accuracy, evasiveness, and awareness and he had his best game of the season (21/38 306 Yards, 2 TD's, 99.2 rating, 4 carries for 17 yards). Even the second game against Tampa he managed to get those skills together (16/26 161 yards, 2 TD's, 104 rating, 11 carries 63 yards). But for every great game Vick has he has at least two below average games and every season he has about 3 absolutely horrible games.

Certainly fixing some problems on the offensive line should correct the poise issue. But I'm not sure if Vick will ever get his accuracy and awareness on the same page as all his other skills. If he ever does watch out NFL because he'll be able to pass as well as Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck, and similar Quarterbacks while being able to run and evade better than many runningbacks.

My concern remains whether or not Vick can get all his skills on the same page and not just bring 2 or 3 of them each week. A lot of it has to do with Vick feeling the need to prove the media wrong and possibly poor pre-game skills and even in-game adjustments. I do expect Vick to take another step forward next year... perhaps this will be the quantum leap we expected this past season and never really got. One thing is for sure Vick has chemistry with Jenkins and White now and both are really emerging as 1/2 receivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:20 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:

. A lot of it has to do with Vick feeling the need to prove the media wrong



I agree 100% with this statement, it seems like the media is getting in his head and he's trying to prove that he can Pocket Pass, while he has an amazing arm, he shouldn't try to be the traditional QB, nothing about him is traditional

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:50 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
I don't disagree with the prior posts. I'm just so frustrated in that Vick can't ever get all the parts of being a Quarterback down in a single game. He shows poise, accuracy, power, evasiveness, and awareness but he never puts them together in any single game. Most games we see the power and evasiveness but it is rare that we see accuracy, poise, and awareness coupled with those skills...


I agree, this Jekyl and Hyde syndrom has been discussed on here before. One game Vick looks pro bowl and the next he looks high school. I personally think it is mostly in his own head. What will it take to get him to level out and allow the coaches to gameplan based on his skills, and be reasonably confident that they call the right play at the right time and know it will work?

Seems like too many times a play is called, not just for yardage, but to attempt to reinstill some confidence in Vick. Like if a long pass goes incomplete, a QB designed run is called immediately following. Some plays just seem completely off the wall, and I find myself screaming at the top of my lungs, 'What the hell?!'

I don't know, i'm not in the meetings or practices. I can only relate my observations based on the games.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:10 pm 
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MadBirdMike wrote:
Seems like too many times a play is called, not just for yardage, but to attempt to reinstill some confidence in Vick. Like if a long pass goes incomplete, a QB designed run is called immediately following. Some plays just seem completely off the wall, and I find myself screaming at the top of my lungs, 'What the hell?!'




I found myself screaming at the last Carolina game "RUN MIKE RUN" he had holes open numerous times, but he just wouldn't run.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:43 am 
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revolution7 wrote:
MadBirdMike wrote:
Seems like too many times a play is called, not just for yardage, but to attempt to reinstill some confidence in Vick. Like if a long pass goes incomplete, a QB designed run is called immediately following. Some plays just seem completely off the wall, and I find myself screaming at the top of my lungs, 'What the hell?!'




I found myself screaming at the last Carolina game "RUN MIKE RUN" he had holes open numerous times, but he just wouldn't run.


Why bother? The defense had already given up so there is no reason to risk serious injury just to try and keep this bottom feeding team in the game. Here are the facts gentlemen:

1) This team would only be marginally better than that 2003 team without Vick right now.

2) There are so many young players getting a lot of time and yet they all seemed to regress towards the end of the year with the only exceptions being Boley, Hall, and Jenkins.

3) Talent-wise, this team is in the bottom of the league without Vick....on par with maybe Cleveland or Detroit.

4) The willingness to dump millions of dollars into the laps of old, unproven, or overhyped (Whitfield, Hartwell, & Price come to mind) players will tie our hands for years to come. I could even throw Dunn into that mix to a lesser extent.

5. McKay would need to have at least 3 more terrific drafts like the last 2, and be willing to dump a lot of veterans, to really get this franchise turned around.

6. Arthur Blank wants a winner NOW and is less concerned with this team becoming a premier franchise in the NFL than he is with selling more tickets & merchandise, which is why he is already on Mora's ass.

7. This coaching staff leaves a lot to be desired in a lot of areas, but Mora is one person I would trust with a team if I were an owner.

8. Michael Vick, nor any other player to ever play in the NFL, cannot win by himself. It took Michael Jordan 7 years to win a Championship, and it would have never happened had they not brought in Pippen, Grant, Kerr, Kukoc, etc.

9. Michael Vick is a proven winner and is as clutch as they come, but he cannot stop the other team's RB.

10. It will take a long term, focused effort to get this franchise turned around and there are already rumors about McKay leaving to become commisioner or something, Blank buying the Braves, and other disturbing news that disrupts continuity & draws focus from the long term goal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:27 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
2) There are so many young players getting a lot of time and yet they all seemed to regress towards the end of the year with the only exceptions being Boley, Hall, and Jenkins.


I disagree here. For the most part the rookies didn't really regress in my opinion. Roddy developed a touch of the dropsies but many passes found Roddy in heavy traffic. He made a lot of circus catches. Davis & Babs stayed pretty much on par with what they had been accomplishing all season long. Although Davis looked much better in preseason. This of course is why we call it pre-season.

The_Incomparable wrote:
3) Talent-wise, this team is in the bottom of the league without Vick....on par with maybe Cleveland or Detroit.


I disagree big time with this statement. Here is a list of teams that I believe we could are at least on par with without Vick: Green Bay, Minnesota, Detroit, Cleveland, Miami, Arizona, St. Louis, San Francisco, New Orleans, New York Jets, Buffalo, Houston, Tennessee, Oakland. We are in the 'middle' class of the NFL. Good enough to at least be borderline Playoff contender even without Vick.

The_Incomparable wrote:
4) The willingness to dump millions of dollars into the laps of old, unproven, or overhyped (Whitfield, Hartwell, & Price come to mind) players will tie our hands for years to come. I could even throw Dunn into that mix to a lesser extent.


Again I disagree as I really think you are addressing the old regime (the Dan Reeves era) as Whitfield and Price both decisions from before McKay came here. I wouldn't add Warrick Dunn because he has done what we signed him to do. Did we over pay him? Yeah we did. Hartwell hasn't even had a chance to make an impact on this team. He had what seemed to be a fairly severe injury hampering him through most the season. We can judge Hartwell next year and I don't consider 27 to be old.

The Falcons have been committed to brining in young talent. But we still need veteran role-players and leaders (See Ike Reese). If this team was pure raw and young talent then yes we would be on par with Cleveland because everyone would be developing and most veteran teams would take us to task.

The_Incomparable wrote:
5. McKay would need to have at least 3 more terrific drafts like the last 2, and be willing to dump a lot of veterans, to really get this franchise turned around.


Again I don't agree. We have so much young talent that is developing. We saw key young players take big leaps namely Jenkins and R. White. I would like to see the Falcons part with veteran players that are overpaid and underperforming. Most noteably Dez White, Todd McClure, and Brady Smith. IMO Keith Brooking played well enough to save himself from the chopping block. But what does this franchise need to turn around? I think this is more of a "Sophomore Jinx" for Jim Mora Jr. In almost every sport and at almost every position of the game you experience a "Sophomore Jinx" and I think Mora went through it. But this team does not need to be "turned around" it needs holes filled (specifically RDE, DB, S, C, LT).

The_Incomparable wrote:
6. Arthur Blank wants a winner NOW and is less concerned with this team becoming a premier franchise in the NFL than he is with selling more tickets & merchandise, which is why he is already on Mora's ass.


I am with you on this one Incomp. Mr. Blank does walk a tight line of becoming Al Davis/Snyder type owner. I would really like to see him stay off the field and in the Skybox. Every meddling owner in the NFL you can find on the sidelines at the end of a game. I don't mind if he does a pre-game walk through but stay off the field after the game and talk to the player sin the clubhouse. Sometimes it looks like the den mother has come down to tend to her wounded cubs. Ever notice he almost always goes straight to Vick after a game too?

The_Incomparable wrote:
7. This coaching staff leaves a lot to be desired in a lot of areas, but Mora is one person I would trust with a team if I were an owner.


I agree for the most part. I think Donatell is the highest on the list of possible cuts. For being such a high-regarded coach our secondary coach (Emmitt Thomas I believe?) we have pretty bad DB's. I would also consider releasing our defensive line coach. Other then that I think we have some top notch coaches.

The_Incomparable wrote:
8. Michael Vick, nor any other player to ever play in the NFL, cannot win by himself. It took Michael Jordan 7 years to win a Championship, and it would have never happened had they not brought in Pippen, Grant, Kerr, Kukoc, etc.


I cannot comment on Mike Vick until camp time. I will simply say agree (and I think Crumpler is Vick's Pippen, Dunn his Kerr, and Jenkins or Roddy will be his Kukoc).

The_Incomparable wrote:
9. Michael Vick is a proven winner and is as clutch as they come, but he cannot stop the other team's RB.


Agree.

The_Incomparable wrote:
10. It will take a long term, focused effort to get this franchise turned around and there are already rumors about McKay leaving to become commisioner or something, Blank buying the Braves, and other disturbing news that disrupts continuity & draws focus from the long term goal.


Again I don't think this team needs to be "turned around." We have arguably the most talented linebacking unit in the league to go with a pretty talented D-Line. Our receivers started to break out last year a long with Warrick Dunn and some minor improvement on the offensive line. This team needs to plug some holes but they do not need to 'turn it around.'

I don't think McKay is a risk to leave I think Pudge noted that our beloved current Commish signed a 4-year contract extension this past season. So McKay isn't leaving anytime in the very near future. Even if McKay does I have no doubt Atlanta has someone learning from him and will be able to assume his roll when the time comes.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:39 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
Again I don't think this team needs to be "turned around.


Ding ding! THat's it! That's the money statement. You realize you are talking about turning around an 8-8 team. An 8-8 team in a much improved NFC. If I could nominate dirty's sentence for an award, I would because I agree 200% with his statement.

The Incomparable wrote:
It took Michael Jordan 7 years to win a Championship, and it would have never happened had they not brought in Pippen, Grant, Kerr, Kukoc, etc.


One of the things you are overlooking is that in the 1980s, the Eastern Conference was so strong. The Celtics ruled it for one part of the decade, and the Pistons ruled it for another. Think of the Bulls in the early part of Jordan's career as the Sacramento Kings of the past few years. They were a championship caliber team, but always had to find a way to get past the Lakers to get there. They could not, and it was the same with the Bulls with the Celtics and especially the Pistons back then. Your point is well taken, that it is not an immediate thing to win championships, and JOrdan is a good example of that. In '86 and '87, the Bulls lost to the Celtics in the 1st round of the playoffs, and then '88 through '90, they lost to the Pistons in the conference finals. Then finally in '91 they got the job done. For 5 straight years, whomever the Bulls lost to in the playoffs, managed to go onto the NBA Finals, and won it 3 of those 5 years. I understand the point you're making, but there were other circumstances that "held" Jordan back for those first 7 years of his career, besides the players that he had around him.

dirtybirdnw wrote:
think this is more of a "Sophomore Jinx" for Jim Mora Jr. In almost every sport and at almost every position of the game you experience a "Sophomore Jinx" and I think Mora went through it.


For the most part I agree. I think way too of my fellow Falcon fans are seeing our 2nd half this past year and thinking it the true "essence" of this team. Short of Vick getting injured, I don't think you're ever going to see this team go 2-6 in a half of a season for quite some time. As I recall, many of us weren't quite satisfied with the overall performance of our team even when we were 6-2, noting that the team had done more often than not, just enough to win at that point to get the W, rather than thoroughly beating teams. And I recall, that many of those same people noted that the team would have to start playing better or they would find down the stretch that Ws wouldn't be so easily had. And that wound up coming true.

So this is what I'm taking from 2005: This team is not ready to be a Super Bowl contender. We are definitely a playoff caliber team that is capable of winning this division, but we still lack the consistency needed to be what I would consider a bonafide Super Bowl caliber team. Even though I think them slightly overrated, the Seahawks have the consistency that you like in a Super Bowl contender. The Eagles had it last year. And down the stretch, the Panthers had it the year before. We aren't there yet, but it's not a turn around that is necessary to get there. Just a few more pieces to the puzzle. Here are those pieces IMO, a long list, but not a dauntingly long one:

1) More consistency out of #7. Our inconsistency centers on him, because he's inconsistent. I'd feel less confident about this happening if not for this past November, where we got consistency from him throughout the month. IMO, he and the coaches need to look at that month, compare it to other months and try to figure out what it was that made the difference.

2) The steady progression of our WRs. Now I'm not ready to proclaim the future combo of White & Jenkins as the next great NFL duo, but the very least we need from them is a sense from opposing DCs that they need to watch out for one of them. At this point, opposing coverages are schemed towards stopping Dunn & Vick, rather than our WRs, and that needs to change.

3) Better play from the OL. I don't think you can ask it to get a whole lot better at running the ball. But we need to do a better job protecting the QB.

4) More aggressive D, which starts with a better pass rush. IMO, better pass rush leads to more aggressive defense. And IMO, more aggressive defense means better defensive play, across the board. I think our aggression in 2004 and lack thereof in 2005 was the #1 factor at why our D dropped off so much. It wasn't talent, personnel changes, injuries, etc.

And as you can see, these 4 keys don't center around making personnel changes. Yes, personnel changes are going to definitely help, but only with that last one do you really see that personnel changes are intricately invovled.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:09 pm 
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Our D line is not very talented at all. They get blown off the ball all the time, their pass rush disappears against average or better O lines with the exception of Coleman, and the young guys made about 3 plays each throughout the entire season.

I will give you the young guys argument, but I still think they didn't show the kind of progression you want to see on defense especially.

We are nowhere near a playoff team without Vick. Green Bay when healthy, St. Louis, Minnesota, Miami, New Orleans, the Jets, and the Bills all have a better base of talent than we do outside of the QB position. That means on the lines, and in the backfields, minus the QB.

As far as the overspending I am not targeting a regime, but the franchise's entire history. I will believe Hartwell was another overpaid bust signing until he proves he isn't, because as an Atlanta fan it is what I am conditioned to believe. We brought in Ike Reese to be a Special Teams captain and he lead the world in blocks in the back.

Well as for the franchise needing to be turned around, it is a fact. We have had poor talent & performance for the better part of 40 years. One good season does not change that. There needs to be a tradition established here, a tradition of winning. We have to trim the fat & teach our young guys to play like veterans. This has been essential to the success of the Patriots and it is something we have to work on. We need to work our overpaid vets off the team, with a couple of exceptions, and continue to build the nucleus that will carry us through the next 5-10 years. This is going to be one of the strongest draft classes of the last 20 years, and we could load up on young talent to help Mike win us some championships.

And when you compared our players to the Bulls you exposed our biggest problems. Pippen was an explosive compliment to Jordan. Kukoc was the steady defender. Kerr was the clutch outside threat. Thus Crumpler should be our Kucoc, and Jenkins, Finneran, & White should be our Pippen & Kerr. Then we also need a Dennis Rodman type to round out the group. We need a big time defensive front line guy who makes plays in traffic. I have been wanting Mathias Kiwanuka, but I guess people are unsure as to whether he will ever get any bigger. Either way, we have to get better up front on both sides of the ball, and get a lot more talented amongst our other starters & role-players.

Due to almost 40 years of poor management & scouting, this franchise was at the bottom of the league when we got Michael Vick. He has made a monsterous difference, but if we don't get a lot better in a lot of places then things will be the same 10 years from now than they were 5 years ago. I love my team, but I am also realistic that the problem in Atlanta is more about lack of talent around Vick than it is about bad coaching.

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