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 Post subject: Possible o-line solution
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:38 am 
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Granted there are no guarantees but there may be a way to shuffle some things and only have to go get one player for the o-line to be solid in pass blocking.

First, Omiyale plays one of the tackle spots (whichever he is most comfortable). We drafted him and kept him so let's see what he's got. He goes 310 lbs and that's 20 lbs more than Shaffer and 13 lbs more than Weiner.

Second, Forney shifts to LG. He's the best guard we have so it makes the most since to put him there.

Third, Lehr to center. This is his natural position and instantly adds 20 lbs to the line.

Fourth, Weiner shifts to RG. At 297 lbs, he's a perfect fit for a guard and it's a less demanding position than RT which could help out on the injury front. Also, guards get paid less than tackles so we could convert a lot of his base salary to signing bonus and take on a couple of years to save some serious cap room.

That leaves one tackle spot open which we could fill with a solid free agent and also use a draft pick to groom someone like we did Omiyale.

This shift allows us to use our center as a 3rd guard so to speak which frees up double team help for the tackles as needed. Not to mention the line gets bigger as well...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:44 pm 
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I agree with just about everything Cappy noted in his post. A big question is whether or not Forney can shift to the LG spot. Whenever Lehr wasn't available Claxton came in we didn't shift Forney & Weiner over to fill the gap. That tells me that Forney cannot play on the otherside of the line. But I'm going to assume that it is possible for the sake of this post.

I just read Omiyale's draft jacket and he sounds like a bigger version of Shaffer. Both are finess tackles and both are better on the move (which matches our OL scheme). The draft jacket even notes that Omiyale needs to add more bulk to be succesful at the NFL level. It sounds to me that Omiyale is a lateral move from Shaffer. I do think that Omiyale has a higher football IQ than that of Shaffer.

So we have an OL of Omiyale (LT), Forney (LG), Lehr (C), Weiner (RG), N/A (RT). It would be an interesting shift but most importantly doing this means not losing line continuity which is critical. IMO we should not draft ANY more offensive linemen. We need veteran leaders on this line (not McClure) not more rookies. I would want a veteran RT added to the line in this scenario.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:50 pm 
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The continuity is the kicker of it. I think Forney could move to LG quite easily (especially since he's our best guard). I would like to draft another tackle to groom but I would like a vet for next season.

I think Omiyale is a step up physical talent wise and he's definitely a step up weight wise from Shaffer.

It's worth a shot I'd say, thanks dbw!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:53 pm 
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Seeing as how we can't get Brickshaw in the draft, I agree with Dirty in that we shouldn't draft an OL, but if we can't get any veteran help, then we really have no choice. Something has to be done. As for the moves you are talking about, I don' t know if they could be done or not, but what do we have to lose? I say go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible o-line solution
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:48 pm 
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Capologist wrote:
Granted there are no guarantees but there may be a way to shuffle some things and only have to go get one player for the o-line to be solid in pass blocking.

First, Omiyale plays one of the tackle spots (whichever he is most comfortable). We drafted him and kept him so let's see what he's got. He goes 310 lbs and that's 20 lbs more than Shaffer and 13 lbs more than Weiner.

Second, Forney shifts to LG. He's the best guard we have so it makes the most since to put him there.

Third, Lehr to center. This is his natural position and instantly adds 20 lbs to the line.

Fourth, Weiner shifts to RG. At 297 lbs, he's a perfect fit for a guard and it's a less demanding position than RT which could help out on the injury front. Also, guards get paid less than tackles so we could convert a lot of his base salary to signing bonus and take on a couple of years to save some serious cap room.

That leaves one tackle spot open which we could fill with a solid free agent and also use a draft pick to groom someone like we did Omiyale.

This shift allows us to use our center as a 3rd guard so to speak which frees up double team help for the tackles as needed. Not to mention the line gets bigger as well...


The more I think about this idea the more I like it. Still think the organization may let McClure play out his contract however. Regardless, we have to improve the pass protection somehow.

What vet OT could we get that would be affordable??? FA tackles and corners don't come cheap.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:26 am 
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One of the thigns I noticed about Omiyale this past summer was that he didn't have great upper body strength. He looked good as a pass protector, but he's not ready to be an NFL starter because his strength is lacking. So he may weigh more than Shaffer, but from what little I've seen of Omi compared to Shaffer, he's not stronger. And an issue with Al Miller leaving is how much stronger is Omi going to be in 2006?

Guards shifting from one side of the OL to the other is definitely easier than OTs doing it. Forney moving the left side makes some sense, but I'd only do if the team were able to get a solid veteran RG rather than just moving Weiner inside.

Don't confuse size with strength. They are two totally different thigns. Look at Matt Lepsis. He's the same size as Shaffer (6-4/290), but is very strong (he benches over 500 pounds). Compared with Shaffer's draft time bench of 425 and Omi's of 385. One assumes those numbers have/will increase over their careers now, but Lepsis plays with his strength, something Shaffer & Omi don't do well. The ideal fit in this scheme is quick guys that are strong, like a Matt Lepsis who works well in Denver. Lepsis now is one of the better OTs in the NFL but he went through his growing pains much like Shaffer did early on in his career. I really think they are similar players, and I'm not ready to give up on Shaffer.

In terms of veteran RTs that we could go after, Tom Ashworth (Patriots) or Kenyatta Walker (Bucs) seem like the best fits. Neither are perfect players, but athletic guys that can move and have had success in the NFL. As for veteran LTs there are some talented guys, but they've been disappointments recently and signing one would basically be hinging on the hope that Gibbs immediately can elevate their playing level to where it should be. Those players would be Mike Pearson (Jags) and Jeff Backus (Lions).

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:19 pm 
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Alot of us have been calling for Lehr to center since we signed him.

I'd like to see Omiyale also start somewhere although I'm not so sure of putting him at RT. I'm not to thriled of him protecting Vick back side.

I'd get rid of Forney. It doesnt matter where we put him, his best move is, "LOOK OUT!". And Schaeffer, I'd let him go too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:04 pm 
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I would go after bigger/stronger guys that are still athletic enough for the scheme. I would look for guys that know how to pass protect. I feel linemen are more easily taught how to run block than protect the passer.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:03 pm 
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call me crazy, but I have this sneaking suspition that we will see the same o-line again next year.....I mean I hope not, but I bet we do....


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:53 am 
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I wouldn't bet against you.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:56 am 
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Steve-O wrote:
call me crazy, but I have this sneaking suspition that we will see the same o-line again next year.....I mean I hope not, but I bet we do....


Unfortunately, I have a feeling it will be fairly close to the same o-line. I do think Omiyale will replace Shaffer but that's probably it...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:12 am 
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Capologist wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
call me crazy, but I have this sneaking suspition that we will see the same o-line again next year.....I mean I hope not, but I bet we do....


Unfortunately, I have a feeling it will be fairly close to the same o-line. I do think Omiyale will replace Shaffer but that's probably it...


I agree. If anything we will probably spend a relatively high pick on one of the top Guards like Davin Joseph or Mark Setterstrom.. Usually, Guards translate to the NFL the quickest & have the least trouble starting in their rookie year.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:25 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
Capologist wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
call me crazy, but I have this sneaking suspition that we will see the same o-line again next year.....I mean I hope not, but I bet we do....


Unfortunately, I have a feeling it will be fairly close to the same o-line. I do think Omiyale will replace Shaffer but that's probably it...


I agree. If anything we will probably spend a relatively high pick on one of the top Guards like Davin Joseph or Mark Setterstrom.. Usually, Guards translate to the NFL the quickest & have the least trouble starting in their rookie year.


If we pick up a guard, and moved Lehr to Center then that would take a firm step in the right direction IMO. Here's what I've posted elsewhere that may give some understanding of what happens on Sunday's:

t really comes down to this: McClure would be just fine in a line that had a Walter Jones type tackle and another physical tackle but with light linemen, we need a bull of a center to free up guard help. It has nothing to do with where the center lines up but how the assignments are called and who engages who.

Example: LT takes on Simeon Rice, LG helps out LT, C takes the RDT, RG takes on the LDT, and the RT takes on the LDE. This then allows a RB or TE to watch for LB delay blitzes which we got caught on several times due to our current SCHEME.

Our current scheme does the following: LT takes on RDE with help from TE or RB, LG takes on RDT, RG takes on LDT, C helps a guard or gets helped by a guard, RT takes on LDE with possible help from a TE or RB depending on what set we use. That leaves NOBODY to watch for LB delay blitzes. There is no one left to help out with that. You can't expect a guard engaged in a scheme to block a DT to peel off in a split second and pick up a linebacker, it's not physically possible.

That's the way it is, it's football 101 and it's not my opinion, it's what it is for better or for worse.

Three ways to solve the problem: 1) Get a Walter Jones type tackle than can take on a Simeon Rice or Julius Peppers and not get killed doing it (show me how we get a draft pick to acquire such talent since it will take a top 10 pick at best case scenario OR show me a trade scenario that we aren't giving up the farm OR show me a case where one will EVER be a free agent--they don't let them walk). This would eliminate the need for a double team and free up a RB as described in the first scenario.

2) Get a bull of a center that can take on a DT that gets far less sacks than a DE on average. It's a cheaper option, it's something a 3rd or 4th round pick can accomplish and bull centers are often available through free agency. I'd also note that Lehr's natural position is Center not guard and this was his first year in the scheme (or does that only go for QB's and WR's???)

3) Given the above, move Lehr to center who is heads and tails more physical than McClure and 25 to 30 lbs bigger and get a guard, which we've seen with Forney can be gotten with a later round pick.

Given the above 3 choices, I think it's a lot smarter to invest $500,000 to $1,000,000 to fix the problem rather than multiple 1st round picks or players that play key roles on the team along with a 5 year $40 million price tag to boot for a Walter Jones type tackle.


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